CONDOR WITH TALON TANK 1500 PSI FILL

[melloroadman]

CPH 10.5 .177 pellets . P.W. on low 1500 PSI fill . 120 shot count strings of 20 shots . End PSI 600 .
String 1 - 882 , 875 , 877 , 877 , 873 , 872 , 865 , 864 , 861 , 855 , 854 , 853 , 849 , 848 , 847 , 843 , 836 , 837 , 837 , 830 , average 857 fps
String 2 - 829 , 826 , 824 , 821 , 819 , 820 , 809 , 809 , 813 , 802 , 802 , 800 , 799 , 796 , 794 , 791 , 791 , 788 , 783 , 779 , average 805 fps
String 3 - 771 , 771 , 768 , 767 , 768 , 759 , 755 , 757 , 754 , 752 , 750 , 748 , 745 , 744 , 738 , 737 , 737 , 732 , 731 , 726 , average 751 fps
String 4 - 722 , 723 , 718 , 714 , 712 , 710 , 706 , 705 , 698 , 700 , 698 , 694 , 690 , 690 , 686 , 686 , 684 , 680 , 676 , 675 , average 698 fps
String 5 - 672 , 670 , 666 , 664 , 658 , 657 , 658 , 654 , 653 , 648 , 646 , 643 , 642 , 637 , 634 , 635 , 632 , 631 , 625 , 623 , average 647 fps
String 6 -  618 , 620 , 616 , 614 , 609 , 607 , 606 , 603 , 598 , 599 , 592 , 594 , 587 , 586 , 582 , 579 , 578 , 574 , 573 , 570 , average 595 fps
The average of the first 40 shots 831 fps , first 60 shots 804 fps , frist 80 shots 778 fps , first 100 shots 752 fps , average of 120 726 fps . Average air usage 7.5 psi per shot . Total fills off a 80 cf . tank up to 40  . Marvin

[DanoInTx]

Hey Marvin!

I've been following your work on different fill pressures for awhile now and it looks like you are enjoying the new gun pretty well.  I have a question or 3 if you don't mind.  I absolutely love a gun that requires a low fill pressure, so your data is definately useful, but with a downward ramping shot string like that how well does your POI stay focussed during one of those strings?  

If I look in Chairgun and put a CPH .177 at 882fps, scope at 3" (about right for an Airforce gun), zero at 20 yards.  At 20 you are zeroed, at the peak you are 7/8" high at 37yards and second zero at 52 yards, which is pretty good.  Now if you drop that velocity to 698fps, which is the average for your string#4, then if you still zero at 20 yards, you are about 1/4" high at 27 yards and your second zero is at 35 yards, but....at your old second zero of 52 yards you are now almost 3" low.  If you go down to the average of string 6, zero at 20 yards, you stay almost flat till 26 yards where your second zero is, but at 52 yards you are 5 5/8" low.  These strings work fine for short range shooting out to say 20 yards or so, but if you want any sort of accuracy past that you are going to get a heck of alot of vertical stringing with the downward sloping shot strings.  

One thing you might look at if you're interested is that it is possible to get a much flatter shot string by adjusting the tophat on your bottle.  I am by no means an Airforce expert, but I did manage to get a pretty flat shot string by turning the power wheel up to ten and removing that adjustment from the equation, then lowering the gap between the tophat and the valve and slowly raising it while shooting over the chrony till I got it right.  It took a bunch of fiddling, but the results were worth it.  I was going for much more power than what you appear to be after, but the technique is the same.  There's a really good thread describing how to tune by adjusting the tophat on the Talonairgun.com forum.

I hope you don't get me wrong, securing data is valuable, but I feel using the data to improve your shot strings could be more valuable.  Those guns can definately find a sweet spot, and they sure are accurate once dialed in....and anything "airgun" is a hoot to shoot!

[melloroadman]

As I have stated in the threads I am indoors now Dan and do not need to go for distance . That is what the Condor tank is for . As you have stated your self at 16 yards it don't make a hoot and that is were Iam at . You have very valid points but they are not relevant at this time . I  think you have not followed my thought process here at all . These strings can be cut off at 20 , 40 , 60 or what ever count one would like . I am not trying to tune this rifle at this time . Again please consider what I said the Condor tank is going to be for the distance and there are reading on it you can look at . Iam sorry if I gave you the impression that I was trying to tune this rifle for indoor shooting . It is a great rifle for that just as it is . And with the matched condor tank and sticker it is a good match for a power rifle as well . The thing is Dan not many rifles can give the energy that this one does . Then turn a round with a different tank and give short range low fill high shot count , and accuracy all together . This is not a how to tune your A.F Condor post . Its a how to enjoy the flexiblity of a A.F. Condor with out tweaking it to death . That might come latter . Dan if you will read the other post you will see what the POI drop has been in the past . On this string it was about 1/4 inch .Marvin

[DanoInTx]

I missed the 16 yards thing, my bust.  To me it sounded as though you were trying to go for high shot count on a low fill, I missed the plot and that was why I was trying to point you in the direction of a flatter velocity curve and less use of air.  Regardless it sounds like you're having a bunch of fun with your Condor and that's the whole point.  Enjoy!

[melloroadman]

I appreciate the help here . If you look at the 2800 PSI FILL and the 200 shot count I think you will see that the striker is to heavy for the Talon valve . I am not a professor at this either but it does not get much flater than this . About 2 fps drop all the way down the line is the average . The top hat on the Talon tank is as low as it will go . .105 . Other than having fun here what I hope for is that those that can not work on their own rifles might see that they can make a Condor a dual propose rifle by simply changing the tank . To get any more shots per fill I would have to change the striker to a lighter one like the talon has . It is just too  heavy for the valve in this tank . That is easily done but to some it might be more than they want or can do . I have been lurking at the talon site and seeing what the power hungry are doing as well . They have stated what I just said about the Talon tank on the Condor over there as well . But really at a close distance like most of us use during the winter months this set up is pretty good . You can sure make the bottle last a long time . Marvin

[DanoInTx]

Totally off subject yet sorta on subject....have you checked out the 3 position gun Airforce is making now?  I'm not really interested in a high powered PCP these days, but for indoor shooting one of these might just be the ticket.  Airforce makes an accurate gun, and it looks like the "Edge" with its smaller tank would have a lower comb to contend with than the Talon/Condor series guns so the ergonomics should be improved(my SS gave me a headache after shooting it for awhile).  These look pretty nice, but I haven't heard anything from anyone that owns one.  When I bought my S200 a few weeks ago I seriously considered getting an even lower powered gun for just indoor shooting, like maybe an Edge or the S200 target model.  Unfortunately the budget would only allow one gun, and I have wanted a 12fpe S200 for quite some time...maybe next time:)

Oh yea, almost forgot....I have never taken a Condor apart so I don't know for sure, but I think the Condor has a standard Talon hammer plus an added weight.  If you removed that weight you may get the Talon tank to shoot a little slower for even more shots with very little added tweaking.  Sun comes out, outdoor shooting begins, plop the weight back in and change the tank and you're back in business for hunting.  Again, super disclaimer, I have never been inside the Condor, so this idea is all based on what I've read.

Take care,

[melloroadman]

The Edge caught my eye too . But they keep pro longing the build date . So may be by the time they make it both of us will be back in the market . I have heard the story both ways about the Condor . One its a heavier striker the other its a spacer so I don't know if they made a change somewhere along the line or not . I heard they changed tank designs a while back as well . I do know that my top hat adjustments do not go along with what I have seen posted . Its posted that the Talon should be around .080 and the Condor .090 . My Talon tank was set at .124 and I could not close the slide so I adjusted it as low as it would go to .105 . The Condor tank came set at .067 and with the numbers I got I left it alone . I might phone A.F. and see what they have to say . The Talon form is off limits to me . Something to do with GTA. or I would post some questions over there . I have always hoped more members here would speak up . But it has not happened yet . I know I have one of the few .177 but the adjustment ranges are the same between calibers . And yes I might do the weight striker change before its over but I really wanted to see what this thing would do in its stock form under my shooting conditions . I know it sounds crazy but tomorrow its 1100 psi fill and I think I can get 40 good shots out of it . If not I will try and feed it some CPL 7.9 FOR FOOD . It helps me keep my mind off the cold in the cider block non heated range I am in . But the portable heater might get smuggled in with me here real soon .Marvin

[DanoInTx]

The Condor valve design change is confirmed, the old valve was plagued with valve lock issues at full fill pressures, this has to my knowledge been resolved with the new valve.  I think my TalonSS tophat was adjusted down around .070", so if yours only goes down to .105" I'm not sure what's going on there....maybe my memory is off too...hehe.  I think I stuck feeler gauges under my tophat and tightened to .063", then adjusted up over the chrony till my strings flattened out and velocity was where I wanted it, but I didn't move it much before it settled in.  I don't know why the Talon forum would be off limits, I have never had issues there and even sold quite a few gripsets to the guys over there, they have always been good to me....., but who knows, I haven't been there much in awhile....maybe send a polite email to the admin if you're having log on issues or something that can be resolved?  I believe Tony of Talontunes.com is either the owner or one of the admins, and he is a good guy whom I have done a fair bit of business with, might ask him.  Those Airforce guns can be pretty addictive, that is for sure, I still think about mine every once in awhile and even....shhhhh, think about getting another one:)  Happy shooting!

[melloroadman]

Dan I phoned A.F. today . They said that the strikers are the same weight but the Condor has a striker weight bushing as you stated added to it . So the conflicting statements I have heard are clear in my head now . As far as the top hat measurements goes I really did not get a set figure as to what distances they can vary . They stated how they recommend setting it but did not really address the conflicting measurements that I have gotten . I have my Discovery set up with a 2250 spring and I was going to use it for indoors since it is getting 80 - 100 shots per fill . But then this rifle caught me off guard with this low fill capability so I don't know if I am going to remove the weight or not . I will give it some thought . They also did not have a release date for the Edge yet . Just thought I would let you know .Marvin

[SAVAGESAM]

Marvin, Why are you not allowed at the other site? Also as a side note my friends condor came from the factory with the top hat set at .093 and his will take a full 3k fill and shoot strong from shot one. Mine came set at .080 and likes 2500 max fill or else it will shoot weak for the first ten to twenty shots and I lowered my top hat to .070 seems to use less air.

[melloroadman]

Sam I posted a GTA thread on the yellow form and they banded me which does not allow me to post on that site as well . All this child like behavior of not being able to get along with each others and put ones own opinions down is quite boring if you know what I mean. Also Sam the top hat on my Condorv tank is set at .067 from the factory and it has allowed me to be very conservative on air as you have seen . But remember mine is a .177 with the stronger spring in the exhaust valve . Marvin

[SAVAGESAM]

I would guess it's a combination of the stronger valve spring and the rather conservative setting of the top hat that is giving you such wonderful results. I like to watch all your threads. Very good info.