Author Topic: ARGON filler made  (Read 5365 times)

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
ARGON filler made
« on: January 04, 2009, 06:11:55 PM »
Well that was quick and easy had all the bits laying around.
Just cut up a twin tank scuba manifold I had made years ago
not used it for 10 years.
Now get a bottle of Argon &  bottle of Nitrogen home and have a play
now this is when I need a crony.
Since I only use the PCPs for hunting I may get a year from a
11 cubic metre bottle 60/80 fills.
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline gamo2hammerli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6261
    • http://
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 04:29:47 AM »
Without a chrony...I guess the POI way of measuring would be the way to go.  Without adjusting anything...if the pellets hit higher, then they`re going faster.
Gamo: Expotec .177 + Big Cat .177 + Viper .177 + Whisper .177, Hammerli Titan .177, Diana model 24 .177, RWS-Diana P5 Magnum pistol .177, Crosman: G1 Extreme .177 + Storm XT .177 + Sierra Pro .177 + 1377 pistol .177, Air Arms S410SL .22, BSA Scorpion T10 .22, FX Cyclone .177, Remington Air Master 77 .177 + BB\'s,

Offline ziton

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
RE: ARGON filler made Newbie Question?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 02:34:03 PM »
HI
I'm thinking of getting a AF Condor.
It will be my summer  project.
From what I've read the hand pump is not the way to go and I don't have any scuba shop for hundreds of miles.
I'm trying to figure some way to use nitrogen which I have access to.
Would  an acetylene torch  regulator be workable to make a filler from.
Looking at your filer seems similar.
Can you share some Ideas?
perhaps some pertinent searches.  I'd like to gather more info on filling before I start to save waste.
Thanks    
Don

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
RE: ARGON filler made Newbie Question?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 03:52:59 PM »
Hi...You could use any  gas reg that is rated to 3000psi
just block of the usal out let port and fill the gun from the
port that would have the hi pressure gauge in it.
By puting a tee in that port you could have a 3000psi
pressure gauge as well as the guns fill hose from the same port.

Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline tyrrund

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
    • http://
RE: ARGON filler made Newbie Question?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 04:28:37 PM »
Be careful using a 3k rated regulator on nitrogen. The nitrogen bottle i have is 6k psi and is very dangerous if the regulator is rated for the pressure. Just check the pressure on tanks you have access to before hooking up a regulator.

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 05:11:59 PM »
Hummm..A bomb in waiting at 6k
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline gamo2hammerli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6261
    • http://
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM »
Do the tanks for Argon or Nitrogen need to be inspected every 5 years?  And I'm assuming Argon and Nitrogen are more expensive than an air fill-up?
Gamo: Expotec .177 + Big Cat .177 + Viper .177 + Whisper .177, Hammerli Titan .177, Diana model 24 .177, RWS-Diana P5 Magnum pistol .177, Crosman: G1 Extreme .177 + Storm XT .177 + Sierra Pro .177 + 1377 pistol .177, Air Arms S410SL .22, BSA Scorpion T10 .22, FX Cyclone .177, Remington Air Master 77 .177 + BB\'s,

Offline tyrrund

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
    • http://
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 11:13:48 PM »
I have a 6k nitrogen setup and i pay $60 a year for bottle lease fee. A fillup costs me $30. Im guessing i can get near 100-125 fillups. Im thinking after the initial purchase my setup is cheaper than a scuba shop. Also nitrogen is better for the rifle being as it is moisture free.

Offline ziton

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 02:32:33 AM »
Quote
tyrrund - 1/13/2009  6:13 AM

I have a 6k nitrogen setup and i pay $60 a year for bottle lease fee. A fillup costs me $30. Im guessing i can get near 100-125 fillups. Im thinking after the initial purchase my setup is cheaper than a scuba shop. Also nitrogen is better for the rifle being as it is moisture free.



Thats what I'm talking about.!
PM sent.

Offline MEHavey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • http://
2nd stage regulator...
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 03:00:07 AM »
Does anyone use a second stage pressure regulator (to control final input pressure to the rifle) as found on air compressors?

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
RE: 2nd stage regulator...
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 10:05:58 AM »
I don't use a second stage reg as the bottle I use are filled
to 3000psi but if you were useing a 6000psi bottle you would
need some way to reduce the pressure.

as for the use of a compresser reg I don't know but
I have not seen one that can handle the sort of pressure
that is need for a pcp gun
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline tyrrund

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
    • http://
RE: 2nd stage regulator...
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 10:42:47 AM »
The regulator i bought was about $550. and is fully adjustable from 0-6k psi output. I have mine set at about 2900.

Offline MEHavey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
    • http://
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 11:19:47 AM »
Where/what brand/application type did you find it, Ken?

Offline tyrrund

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 42
    • http://
Re: ARGON filler made
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 04:48:24 PM »
Im not exactly sure i will check with the shop i got it from. Its a welding supply for oilfield mostly. They are using the nitrogen in gas wells for something. So most oilfield welding supply houses should stock or at least be able to order the regulators.  If someone doesnt post any more info i will post what i find out in a couple days.

Offline daved

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2093
    • http://
Okay, time for an update...
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 05:35:15 PM »
Not to step on any toes, here, but there's been a lot of questionable info bandied about on this subject.  I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have a couple of years experience using nitrogen from a 4500 psi industrial cylinder.  Which means what I'm about to say doesn't necessarily apply to the 6K bottles, I've had no experience with them.

First, a regulator is NOT required to use a 4500 psi cylinder.  Think about it, lots of guys are using 4500 psi SCBA bottles, and I guarantee most of them are not using a regulator.  Yes, these things can be dangerous, but they're not "a bomb waiting to happen".  Like lots of things in this world, take it for granted or get careless, and it can, and probably will, bite you.  But so can a springer.  Or your car, for that matter.  This is an expensive enough hobby without tacking on another $3-500 just to be able to fill our rifles.  Which brings us to item #2.

Proper filling technique for any PCP.  Fill SLOW, bleed FAST.  Watch your fill valve, it should come up quickly to remaining pressure, then slow down.  Some guns will squeal a bit when filling, don't let it worry you.  If you can't throttle your source, get a needle valve or some other way to slow down the fill rate.  I fill at a rate just slightly faster than just being able to tell the needle is moving.  Say 100 psi per second or less.  If my gun's tank is getting warm, it's filling too fast.  PAY ATTENTION!  This is not something you want to be doing if there are a lot of distractions going on around you.  Of course, if that's the case, you probably shouldn't be shooting, either :-).  And this applies to any compressed air source, whether a scuba tank, an SCBA, or a big nitrogen cylinder.  Pumps tend to be self regulating, although even there, if the pump is getting hot, you're going too fast.  Info on compressors I'll leave to someone that knows them.

Nitrogen and compressed air are virtually the same molecular weight, the air we breath is about 80% nitrogen.  So don't expect much, if any, difference in performance.  One of the biggest advantages of the industrial cylinders has already been pointed out, this stuff is bone dry.  My opinion is that moisture introduced by using a pump has a braking effect on velocity, as well as increasing wear and tear on the gun.  My guns seem to shoot better on nitrogen, but that's purely subjective, I've never had the chance to really test that theory.  NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, FILL YOUR RIFLE WITH PURE OXYGEN, HYDROGEN, OR ANY OTHER FLAMMABLE OR REACTIVE GAS!!!.  I know that's obvious, but I learned long ago to never underestimate the power of human stupidity :-)!

Cost is variable, Ken pays about half what I do for gas and rent, but my cost is still much less than getting scuba tanks filled, just because of where I live in relation to the closest dive shop (100 mile round trip!).  Portability is an issue, my tank runs 200 pounds or more, not exactly something you'd be tossing in the trunk for a weekend's shooting.  But each cylinder lasts me about 6 months, and I shoot a LOT!  And usually multiple guns as well.  So in my case, it's the best, most economical choice.

Having said that regulators aren't necessary, I'll back track a little bit and say I don't consider them a bad idea, I just don't like the cost.  I think of regs the same way I think of mechanical safeties, you still need to keep the safety between your ears engaged at all times.  For air guns, here's a link to a good regulator: http://www.paintball-discounters.com/get_item_010558_hpa-fill-station.htm  I haven't used this myself, but I've heard good reports from people that have.  From what I've heard, it limits max fill, but not fill rate, so I'd want some kind of flow restricter or needle valve in the system.  There are other, more traditional looking setups available, but the price jumps in a hurry.

I'll close this with a pic of my current fill setup.  With the exception of the combo valve/bleeder, the rest of this was put together from parts I got from my local NAPA auto parts store.  Yes, I had to special order some of it, but total cost is around $100 IIRC.  Certainly no more than $150.  At this point, the only improvement I need to make is replacing my hose, what's on there is a 1/4" hydraulic hose.  It works, but it's very stiff and wastes a lot of air when I bleed off after filling.  A micro bore hose would waste much less, I think 2 or 3 feet has the same volume as a couple of inches of what I'm using.  If someone wants to duplicate my setup, let me know, I think I can probably put together a parts list for you.  Any other questions, you know how to reach me.  Later.

Dave

EDIT:  On further thought, disregard the "100 psi per second" fill rate mentioned above.  It occurred to me that that number is going to be gun tank volume dependent.  While that might be a good rate for my Cyclone with it's 180 cc tank, it would be much too fast for an Air Force Talon with it's 490 cc tank.