pellet hype

[riflejunkie]

Recently I got a couple of new air rifles and have begun the process of getting used to shooting them and finding the best pellet for them.
I've mostly stocked up on wadcutter pellets in the past and have been happy with RWS Meisterkugeln's but have used Gamo's and HN.  I had heard great things about domed pellets being better long range pellets and the two that seemed to be getting my attention the most were JSB exacts 8.4 and Crosman Premier Lights 7.9.  In both my new rifles there is no contest between the CPL and JSB.  The difference isn't small and the CPL wins by a large margin.  Before you start thinking, "Every rifle has it's own preference", there is more to the story than how my two rifles handle these two pellets.  I have noticed with firearms that the difference in brands of ammunition will often show up as windage variations on the target.  Bullet weight doesn't necessarily affect bullet flight the way you think it would, i.e. the heavier projectile may actually shoot higher than a lighter projectile.  Both of these variations show up in my comparison between the CPL and JSB.  With the rifle zeroed at 20 yds using CPL's on a 5 bull NRA 10 meter air rifle target the cpls will stay in the black on the center bull, yet with the JSB's I aim at the center bull and my pellets strike the upper right bull with a much larger group size.  Just as you will normally inspect the pellets, so have I.  Looking at the exterior of the pellets the JSB is a prettier pellet, but looking at the skirt from the bottom the thickness of the skirt is not only inconsistent but many of the skirts are deformed.  This inconsistency in skirt thickness would suggest to me that the weight of the pellet will be lopsided and in flight coming from a rifled barrel would tend to yaw.
The CPL's are a consistently tighter fit in the chambers than the JSB's.  I am less concerned about the deformed skirts than I am about the lopsided thickness of the skirts.  I can cull the deformed skirts, but the skirt thickness inconsistency is on every pellet in the 4 tins I bought. So, is this skirt thickness just an abberation of one random batch that I accidentally wound up with or are they all like this?  
The CPL's in the cardboard box are showing no obvious flaws in deformity or skirt thickness and shoot pretty well.  I have to try several other brands before I'm satisfied what is the best for my rifles, but for now the JSB looks like hype.

[kirby999]

JSB pellet are the finest pellets I have ever shot . No hype , just fact . They consistently out shoot every other pellet I've tried. If you'll futher examine the dimension of the two you've chosen to compare , you find out the head of the CPL is slightly larger and with the JSB the skirt . IMO, that's because the CPL is designed to have it head as it's primary bearing surface , that 's why it's harder to load in most guns ; along with the fact that it's made of a harder alloy . The JSB has a thinner longer skirt as it expands filling the bore as a rear guiding system with it's wieght up front . They perform best in rifles that produce a minimum of 12fpe . The jsb is slightly longer pellet adding to it's ballistic coefficient for better down range accuracy . Both are good pellets , but for long range accuracy the edge goes to the JSB. BTW , the CPL is made shorter on purpose , for use in Crosman guns that have a short bolt probe , The short skirt allows the Crosman bolt probe to push the pellet past the transfer port . A longer deeper skirt would leave part of the pellet over the port robbing speed . kirby

[kirby999]

I might add, the JSB's seem to work best in a choked barrel. Although I've had good results with them in my Crosmans when used with an extended bolt probe . kirby

[riflejunkie]

So, then what is with this lopsided skirt thickness?  Just my batch or on all of them?  I've looked around and see that JSB is the preferred pellet with FT.  I went to Airgunning Atlanta website sometime back and noticed that at one match it was the pellet used by every competitor.  That is quite an endorsement and I only have 4 tins to base my judgement on.  
My RWS pellet skirts are of a consistent thickness.  Do you think I just got a bad batch?  How can the lopsided pellet be getting raves?
There is simple math and physics here.  Thinner on one side = lighter on that side and thicker on the other side = heavier on that side.
What is wrong with that perception?  Would that suggest a propensity to yaw in flight?  Would that explain the lack of accuracy compared to CPL's which you explain are aerodynamically inferior to the design of the JSB?  
The bottom of the JSB skirts are knife edge for part of the circumference and display an obvious flat on the rest.  If you were shooting inferior groups with pellets like these compared to another brand that looks more uniform what would you guess is the reason?

[kirby999]

Don't know about the tins you have , but I've not seen a bad tin of JSB's . The biggest inconsistency I've found with them is in weight . they can weight as much as .4g heavier and lighter than stated . I spent the time sorting them for a while and it did make a little difference when bench shooting but I couldn't tell when shooting field target except for maybe a mental advantage . I'll check the skirts on some of mine and report back what I find . I have found a few that the skirts were badly deformed/bent and toss them , but most will form to the bore when shot . As for the bad grouping . I have a Chinese Ruger Airhawk that is all over the place with the JSB's . CPL's too, it shoot best (if you can call it that, maybe I should say better ) with RWS Superdomes . I've also found that when shooting a new barrel , the CPL's will group better until the barrel gets broken in , leaded up as some say . Then I've switched to the JSB's and they would become the better grouping pellet . Some barrels take a little more breaking in than others .How do the JSB's shoot out of your FWB ? There's a guy in the other hemosphere ( I think he's an Aussie , Yarrah ?) that shot some very impressive groups at 100 yards with his FWB using JSB pellets . kirby

[riflejunkie]

The FWB would apparently shoot rocks well.  Last year about this time I was staying late at work and shooting prone for a couple of hours every night getting ready for smallbore season and played with different pellets and used the 5 bull NRA air rifle target and shot 4-5 shots per bull to have me shooting for approximately the same length of time as in smallbore.  Regardless of pellet brand I was winding up with 4-5 shot holes at 10 meters that looked like one pellt shot.  
To answer your question though, I have not shot the JSB's in the FWB.  Perhaps that would be a good thing to do.  Thanks for the suggestion.  It could give me a good baseline on the accuracy question.

[PeakChick]

Charlotte, I'll beg to differ with you a bit on a few points. First off JSBs are not, in my opinion, hyped. I have found that for consistency, accuracy, and performance accross the ranges I shoot air guns at (10-40 yards) JSBs are by far the most consistent performers, My empirical experience proves this to me. I'm not one to buy something solely because of the name, and am hardly an "early adopter." I'm sorry if you had bad results with JSBs and if you did indeed get a bad lot of them, you are the exception, rather than the rule.
I have very good results with Crossman Premiers too, both in the boxed variety and tin packed versions and they are a good value. However, I've had a greater number of rifles show better results with JSBs. I do use Crossmans over JSBs when I have a rifle that will shoot them as, or nearly as well as the JSBs to enjoy the cost savings. My HW30, HW50, BSA Ultra and Daystate Harrier X all shoot the Premiers well enough that they are the most commonly used fodder in them. (if you want to read about horror story accounts of wildly varying QC, do a search on the YF on Crossman Premier QC issues.)
Secondly, my experience shows that air rifles really do show marked preferences for one or two pellet make and model types over others. I have have several rifles that would only group well with only one pellet make and model and nothing else.
I don't use wadcutters for anything other than shooting paper at 10 yards. Domed pellets are far superior to wadcutters in downrange performance at anything beyond 10 yards.
As for projectile make and model not making that big a difference in powder burners, beyond windage differences, I'll have to beg to differ with you there too. I have been an avid centerfire cartridge hand reloader for over 20 years. I have found that while some rifles will perform adequately with a range of components, the best performance is achieved with the bullet, case, powder, primer, OAL, neck sizing, etc. that works up the best for a particular rifle, barrel, caliber, etc. The difference in group sizes with just something that works in the rifle, as opposed to a load that has been worked up for the gun can be surprisingly different. Rimfires can benefit too from experimenting with using as large a range of different ammo as possible to find the cartrdge that provides the best overall perfomance for a particular rifle. The most expensive brands are not always the best, depending on the gun and the desired results.

[riflejunkie]

Hi Stephanie,
My post was more questioning and stating what is going on although my thread title sounds a little more cynical.  When I have pellets that look painfully thin in the skirt for about 1/3 of the circumference I think it is reasonable to guess that may have some bearing on the larger group size compared to the CPL's.  So far noone has responded with a post saying, "I just looked at my JSB's and the skirts look like ............" which is what I'm fishing for.
As for the firearm cartridge statement I was only saying that from one brand to the next the variation may only be windage even if the group size remains the same as difficult as that may be to explain.  I say that with empirical evidence and without dissatisfaction.  I get that particular variation when switching between Eley Tenex and Lapua Midas M or L.  Both shoot equally well in my match rifles but the Lapua prints to the right of Eley with my CM-2. It goes without saying that ammo choice is a major issue with any competitive shooting event and smallbore is no exception.  The only thing about smallbore is that we can't load our own ammo. Consequently I have about 25,000 rounds of various brands of ammo in my "stash".

[USNCop]

Charlotte,
Although I'm a lone wolf type person, I couldn't agree more with Peak and Kirby.
I just went to the garage to look at my JSB pellets.  They were purchased about 4 years ago.
They are Domes, Flats and Predator poly tips(which were made by JSB at that time)and they all have perfectly symmetrical skirt edges.

I understand perfectly what Kirby described as I cut my AG teeth 25 years ago on A Crosman pumper.
I would definitely say you have a flawed batch.
I would also venture to guess those pellets may even be wobbling a tad in flight since the skirt thickness is not even all the way around.

One thing I've learned since finding airgun forums about 8 yrs ago, products generally get a following for specific reasons.  The poor stuff is usually brought out in the open.
I fully intend on buying more JSB's without reservation.
Hope this helps.

[Dave1899]

charlotte, I think you got a bad batch. Last year I got a bad batch and many of them were as you describe. The company I bought them from replaced them with new tins that were in better shape. Still had some bad ones but I gues that can be expected at times. I recently purchased another sleeve and they are beautiful You might call the place you got them from and see if they'll replace them. Maybe they just have some old tins from the bad batch times.

[riflejunkie]

As I said in an earlier post, I went to Airgunning Atlanta and looked at what the competitors in one of their matches were using and everyone of them used JSB and I acknowledged that that is quite an endorsement.  JSB Exact seems to be the Eley Tenex of of airgunning.  I've just been perplexed with the bent skirts and uneven skirt thickness and since I've only bought a total of 4 tins I must assume I got trash pellets.  I'm no where near the break-in point on these new BAM's when I'll start shooting in earnest but I did expect more from JSB's from all that I've heard/read.  In fact, THESE JSB skirts look like the worst QC of any brand pellets I have bought.

[tjk]

Can't really add to much to this thread Charlotte, But it sounds to me like the JSB's you recieved were damaged/ mis-handled during the shipping process. It's happenned to me as well. JSB brand pellets are for the most part a fragile type pellet that will not stand rough treatment,...especially around the skirts. If they are damaged beyond use,...I'd contact the seller and ask for an exchange,....But if they are only slightly bent/deformed, a quick fix would be to gently apply the round end of a cock-tail swizzle stick and round them out ever so slightly. I've done this numerous time with no ill effects in performance and accuracy. I promise you,...the more you use them, the more you will like them. And they work best in a well seasonned barrel too. Just my 2 cents, tjk

[riflejunkie]

I'm in the process of just shooting for the sake of getting a sufficient number of rounds down the bore to get the rifle broken in. I shot 3 different pellets, JSB, CPL, and Champchoice wadcutters made by H&N. The performance at 20 yds was CPL, H&N, JSB.
In all honesty though I see potential with JSB because the heavier pellet shoots significantly higher than my other lighter pellets.
One thought about shape from an outside source. If you look at Eley Tenex they are flat nose with a dimple. Very nearly a wadcutter and are generally considered the very best/most accurate rimfire round available. Yes there are great shooters who use Lapua and RWS R50, but Tenex rules the roost and it is not a round nose. I can't afford Tenex at $160 for a brick. Ouch!!! SK Std Plus/Wolf Match Target are $45 a brick and shoot well enough to hold the 10 ring on a conventional target which is still better than me.

[tjk]

Can't remember which rifle you're shooting with ,...but if you're in the process of breaking it in,...I'd opt for the cheapo Crosmans for that task and save the "good" stuff for post break in shooting. Seasonning a barrel really seems to benefit an air rifle barrel alot ( at least with mine),... an occasional buff with a dry patch, and I'm good to go!!!!Good Luck with the JSB's. tjk

[Gene_SC]

Did not read all the threads but I think I got the jest of Charlotte's starting thread. There are so many variations to determine which pellet shoots best at what distance and also the mechanical condition of the air rifle. I find that when shooting wad cutters with a gun that shoots over 900 fps that it is a crap shoot with any model at any given distance. So there is one of the variables...(FPS) of the air rifle you are shooting. There is not enough ink on the GTA to cover every aspect of this topic... The above posts all have great points but you have to look at the Whole Picture..

And take each brand of pellet, with one model of gun at various distances and then you have the problem with what that particular air rifle shoots best at which distance etc etc etc. ..