Prop 8? Your thoughts.

[Hermie]

Here in California, Prop 8, the proposition to ban gay marriage, is heading to the California Supreme Court this week. What do you think?


My take: Prop 8 violates the US Constitution. Both houses of the CA legislature agree that Prop 8 was a Constitutional revision, and not an amendment, thus requiring a 2/3 majority vote in the legislature. Therefore, it does not follow the "Due Process" clause of the US Constitution, because the majority is trying to strip the minority of a basic right. Also, though not as concrete, the 14th Amendment "Equal Protection" clause is also broken by putting discrimination into law.

I also have a LONG list of responses to concerns over Prop 8, either proving them groundless or misdirected.

[Gene_SC]

It will never pass. Ninety percent of the state elected officials are gays, and lesbians..

[Big_Bill]

Well Brothers and Sisters,

I have NO problem with Gays and Lesbians being able to "JOIN TOGETHER" or have the same benefits as "Married" people. I do STRONGLY object to them being JOINED TOGETHER AS OR INMARRIAGE !

In my personnel opinion,marriage isthe Religious joining of a man and a women, with the intent for the two, to procreate and love one another ! I feel that the Government or the State, has no right to alter, change, or modify this Religious belief ! I feel that Government has no right inter fearing with Religion and their beliefs, in any way!

I also feel strongly, that the Homo*_*_*_*_*_*ual community is trying to say they are normal, and entitled to be wed in every Religious institution. And have their unions considered marriages. To in affect, shove their abnormal behavior into our faces, and tell us that they exist on the same level or plane as we are...

So I could not care what they do, with legal, consenting partners, and I hope joint property rights and alimony are part of and divorce or separation, as well as custody of their pets. But protection under the Law, can not change the teachings and the religious beliefs of countless Religions and peoples.

So take the best offer available, civil unions or no unions at all !

Bill

[gamo2hammerli]

Well said Big_Bill.  Marriage under the eyes of God....meaning a man and a woman....not a woman and a woman or a man and a man.  As for their rights from the govt......what about sisters, brothers, uncle and nephew  and/or sister and brother couple that live and share the same home for a long time......how come they don't have the same rights as a married couple (gay or straight)?  If one of them dies...shouldn't the other one get his/her benefits?  A big can of worms here.........

[TCups]

See: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Religion/sr0036.cfm

. . . which reads, in part:

In the days since [Obama's] election, for example, this country has witnessed acts of blatant religious hatred directed against those who supported Proposition 8, the ballot measure in California defining marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman.[23] People who donated to Proposition 8 have been pressured out of their jobs;[24] their businesses have been targeted for reprisals;[25] churches have been vandalized;[26] a copy of The Book of Mormon has been set on fire on the steps of a Mormon church;[27] and suspicious white powder has been sent to Mormon temples.[28] An open letter recently published in The New York Times condemned the violence and intimidation directed against Mormons and other religious individuals and institutions simply for supporting traditional marriage policies.[29].

I refrain from any further comment.

[Hermie]

Bill- Do you know that there are several other places a couple can get married, without setting foot miles within a church? Invalidating Prop 8 has no effect on religion, unless you make it. Unless your name is the State of California, your definition of marriage will not change.

One thing that annoys me about people being so religious about gay marriage is they are almost always selective with the Bible. The Bible looks down on divorce. So why not ACTUALLY protect marriage and ban divorce?


And yes, I know this is a huge can of worms. I'm hoping we can all be mature enough to discuss this civilly.


Gene- I really doubt the ratio is THAT high. More like... 15%. And that's a generous estimate. I'd bet money it's no higher than 30%.

[Big_Bill]

Michael,

The most promiscuous people on earth are Gay Homo*_*_*_*_*_*ual Males, Hetero*_*_*_*_*_*ual Males would be elated if they had one half as many encounters per year, and probably die from exhaustion. So don't teach me about the Bible ! If you were allowed to be married by Old Testament Law, there would not be a Gay Male Alive, they would be stoned,,,with rocks, as an Adulterer! And Divorce is accepted in the Old Testament, as well as the New, the one that violated the Law,, Died (see above). And since you seem to have an understanding of the Bible, do you remember the punishment for Sodomy was ? more rocks !

Now I am Liberal or Constitutional enough not to care what others do, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but even the Constitution does not guarantee Happiness. And I don't let others to interfere with mine..

Bill

[Hermie]

Do you have proof of the promiscuity statement? I happen to know some gays and lesbians who are EXTREMELY loyal. And there are plenty of promiscuous straights. From my experience, gays are no different from straights other than their brain chemistry being closer to that of the opposite gender. (A Sweedish study proved that homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality is indeed determined at birth, and is not a choice.)

Though here's something I ask everyone.

How does two gays getting married TRULY affect you?

[airgun/cuz]

Michael,,very good question :How does two gays getting married TRULY affect you?  I believe that it should not affect anyone except the two being married that they now share their life as one,more power to them,I don't understand why people get so riled up over it,I believe in God & Jesus Christ & I treat peoplle as indivuduals & as I want to be treated,there are many things written in the bible that people don't live their lives by,why is a gay lifestyle such a big deal,people are born gay to straight healthy successfull parents of faith everyday,if we are all Gods children & I do believe we are,why would God allow his children to be born to the lifestyle to that, of what others believe is evil,if Adam was the first man to be created in Gods image & Eve was created from Adams rib to become his mate then everyone after them are brother & sister,why is the incest theory overlooked but gay lifestyle truly affects many,we do live in a society full of homo-phobics,again why doesgay lifestyle bother so many people????????

[TCups]

See: http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/HL515.cfm

September 20, 1994
The American Tradition of Personal Responsibility
by Dennis Prager
Heritage Lecture #515

Excerpt:

Redefining Tolerance to Mean Approval

As defined by one major dictionary, "tolerate" means "to allow without prohibiting or opposing; to permit." As now redefined, "tolerate" means "not only to permit, but to approve."

Let me touch on what I believe to be the most difficult contemporary example-homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality. I believe that, except for incest, we must tolerate any consensual *_*_*_*_*_*ual behavior among adults. I also strongly believe that any dismissal of the humanity of a homo*_*_*_*_*_*ual person is immoral; a gay person is created in God's image, just as is any other human being, and is as likely to do good as any other human. But while I must tolerate homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality and honor the personhood of the homo*_*_*_*_*_*ual, I do not have to say, "I honor same-*_*_*_*_*_* love as the equal of male-female love."

It is virtually impossible to hold such a position today, however. Tolerance of homo*_*_*_*_*_*uals without full acceptance of homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality renders you a "homophobe," and discussion is thereby ended. If you state that male-female love should be society's ideal, you are deemed so morally inferior as to be unworthy of dialogue.

Now, there are indeed anti-gay bigots, and it pains me deeply that a human would judge another solely by his homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality. But we have a right to judge *_*_*_*_*_*ual behavior even while tolerating it and respecting the individual. And I do judge it because of the tradition I come from. My Jewish religion says that male *_*_*_*_*_*ual love should be confined to one female and to marriage and that there are varying degrees of wrongful deviation from that ideal, some of which are less significant, like consenting adult premarital *_*_*_*_*_*, and some of which are more significant, like adultery, incest, and, yes, homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality.

I am stuck with a code, if you will. Without that code, what would I care if people slept with the same *_*_*_*_*_*?

Whatever your position regarding homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality, however, the fact remains that the new meaning of tolerance-approval-is another attempt to do away with personal responsibility.

[RJMcElwain]

"In my personnel opinion,marriage isthe Religious joining..................."

Exactly. It's a religious rite. And the Bill of Rights guarantees freedom of religion. So if two women want to marry, and some clergy is willing, why should I care?

[TCups]

Were you going for due process or rights not specifically enumerated with that reference?

[Hermie]

I have listened to many of the concerns of those who supported Proposition 8. Not very many of them had any legal weight. Regardless of their concerns, it is wrong to deny equal rights. But before anyone says it, no one is legally allowed to have more than one spouse, no one is allowed to have *_*_*_*_*_* with minors, and no one is allowed to marry animals. All these laws are equal because they apply to EVERYONE, not just a majority or minority. Unequal rights is allowing some to do something and deny it to others, such as allowing straight couples to marry and denying it to same-*_*_*_*_*_* couples.

There were concerns over "protecting traditional marriage," but these concerns hold no ground because a man and a woman can still marry the same way they always have. Marriage is better protected by banning divorce anyway. The bible looks down on divorce, remember? Hypocrites.

The concern about "changing my definition of marriage" holds no ground because it is not changing any single person's definition of anything, unless your name is the State of California.

Though there were legitimate concerns about the teaching of gay marriage in schools. Prop 8 had nothing in its text about schools. However, this matter can be addressed in a different way, such as passing laws that give parents more rights (parents should be more active in their child's schooling anyway), and offer strict penalties for schools that don't properly inform parents of sensitive materials instead of taking rights away from other Americans.

The concerns regarding religion hold no ground because church and state are separate in this country. We all have the right to believe differently, and must respect another's rights.

In regards to procreation, there is already overpopulation problems. China has a one child per family law. Gay people are already gay; Letting them get married will have no effect on procreation. There are also out-of-wedlock children born daily, so marriage has nothing to do with procreation. There are also straight couples who choose not to have children. The human race will surely survive if gay couples marry. Now, a real threat to humanity is nuclear war. That will likely eliminate the human race, or a good majority of it.

Here are some other concerns:

"Gay marriage will perverse marriage." This holds no ground either. A lot of straight couples cheat on each other. Some straight couples practice sodomy. That's perversing marriage, is it not? Hypocrites.

While your at it, why not make Props to make divorce illegal and incest legal, because they are both in the bible! Stop being selective. If you are going to start thumping the bible about one thing, you better start thumping for the rest of it, you hypocrites. Go to your local Jehovah's Witness hall and learn what being a Christian really means.

“Marriage is a religious institution.” Are you going to say Atheists can't marry? Hypocrites.

"Being gay is a choice." Science has proven this wrong. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
http://purplepew.org/god-matters/justice-matters/gay-study-suggests-homo*_*_*_*_*_*uality-biological
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=6209976
If you continue to say this, it shows how ill-informed you are, and how blind and foolish you are for refusing to see the truth.

“Marriage is not in the constitution.” Neither is your right to breathe. Hypocrites.

“Churches will be forced to marry gay couples.” Go read the California marriage code, section 400. No one has to set foot anywhere near a church to get married.

When it comes to the voice of the voters, it is not a right of the voters to take away the rights of others. The courts are there to protect the rights of those not favored by the majority, among other reasons. They are doing their job in the face of extreme scrutiny, and I applaud them.

If you don't want to give them the word “marriage,” then all marriages should be called civil unions. Don't like it? Welcome to their world.


You don't have to agree with same-*_*_*_*_*_* marriage. You are entitled to disagree. But you are not entitled to deny someone else of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, unless it affects you directly and adversely. The “No on 8” campaign isn't trying to push the “gay agenda,” but to level the playing field and promote equality for all Americans. The “Yes on 8” campaign doesn't have much ground to stand on, and with what it does, their energy would best be directed at schools, and not the homo*_*_*_*_*_*uals. Instead of trying to take away rights, how about work to give rights?



------------------------------------

Here is the text of Prop 8, taken from the offical filing, found here: http://ag.ca.gov/cms_pdfs/initiatives/i737_07-0068_Initiative.pdf

SECTION I. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the "California Marriage Protection Act."

SECTION 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution. to read:

Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California

 

If a same-*_*_*_*_*_* marriage is held by citizens of another state, it MUST be recognised in California. The "Full Faith and Credit" clause protects this. If California refuses to recognise an out-of-state marriage, they are in violation of Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution. Though DOMA has declared it to be a state issue, straight marriages are recognised in other states, so it in itself is in violation of the same. Here is the text:

"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State."

 The judges that made gay marriage legal had a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AND DUTY to do so. Arcticle VI if the United States Constitution states:

 "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof, and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, and any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

The "Due Process" clause of the 5th Amendment to the United States Constitution makes this law null and void. The campaign for this proposition used outright lies and mislead voters into believing what proponents claimed to be facts.

"... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

 The 9th Amendment of the United States Constitution gives the people of the country unwritten rights. Marriage is a one of those rights. Here is the text:

"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution is by far the biggest broken. Proposition 8 put discrimination into law.by removing the rights of American citizens based on thier *_*_*_*_*_*ual orientation. Under Amendment 14 to the United States Constitution, discrimination in law is illegal.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Furthermore, Prop 8 attacks our forefather's words founding this country. The Declaration of Independence states:

"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by thier Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, And the Pursuit of Happiness."

 

Proposition 8 is unconstitutional, and WILL be overturned.

----------------------------------


To those who supported Prop 8 for religious reasons:
ENOUGH OF THE RELIGION ALREADY!

You hypocritical Christains are really getting on my nerves.

Yes, the bible suggests homo*_*_*_*_*_*ual acts are a sin. But you are instructed under the bible to give sinners "gentle correction," and turn the other cheek if they refuse to listen. You have refused to do this, and so you are in violation of your own religion.

Shame on you. Shame that you call yourselves Christian and yet play politics with the very book that tells you to rise above this! How dare you be so selective. If you are going to believe in God and His word, believe ALL OF IT! Stone your children when they misbehave, prostitute your daughters when money is tight, and procreate with your cousins to multiply! The bible says all of these things as well! How dare you pick out one thing from the Holy Book and use it to satisfy your own twisted political views!
SHAME ON YOU.
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Matthew 7:1-5
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
Joshua 1:8
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”
John 8:7

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:22


Save yourself from your own hypocracy and go to a Jehovah's Witness hall and learn the true meaning of Christianity!

[TCups]

Closed-minded, racist-biggot-homophobes -- yes, we understand the left's position.  That has been understood from the outset.  Should others have a different opinion, then they obviously hate their brothers and are not worthy of even debating.  

Due process - the biggest loophole with surrounding penumbras ever in our "living constitution" for federal judges to legislate from the bench, irrespective of a valid statewide referendum. Who needs a code of ethics and founding principles, anyhow.  California is several years ahead of most of the rest of the country, though.  We can certainly see that -- in your states social policies, tax policies, energy policies, etc.  I am most happy that you reside there in that progressive paradise and hope that is going well for you and other Californians.  The next few years are certainly going to be "interesting times".  And finally, thank you for your kind comments on Christianity and salvation and the tolerance and open mindedness you also show.  It has been a Revelation, and a pleasure, sir.  Happy days are here again, they skies are turning clear again, etc.  Have a nice day.

PS: Hermie, et al,  I have removed myself as a moderator on the Politics and Religions Discussion forum.  The Moderator Avitar still appears, however.  Sorry if it offends.

[RJMcElwain]

Hermie,

Excellent post.