Author Topic: 100 yards again  (Read 9135 times)

Offline douglas george

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100 yards again
« on: March 17, 2009, 05:39:49 PM »
Today was a fine day to shoot.  No wind...and in Kansas!  75 degrees, spring break from teaching, have the day off from my other job...So I shoot a 22 rifle, and three air rifles bench rest at 100 yards.
1. 22: CZ 452 with RWS 30mm 4-12X50 air gun scope.  Fired one 3 shot 3/4 inch group with Federal long rifle.

2. RWS 350 Magnum 177 air rifle  I shot this air rifle bench rest, using JSB 8.2 gr Exact, JSB 10.2 gr Exact Heavy. and Beeman Kodiak.  The air rifle has a RWS 30mm 6X42 scope and is zeroed at 25 yards with Beeman Kodiaks.  With two people watching I hit a sliver of wood at 100 yards 3 out of four times.  First shot missed...finding aiming point.  On target:  with JSB Exact 8.2 gr the air rifle shoots about 2 1/2 high at 100 yards.  I shot a 2 1/2 inch 5 shot group off the bench.  With Beeman Kodiak I shot a 2 inch group about 1 inch high, and 1 inch to the left.  I shot another 1 inch group with the JSB 8.2gr next  8 and 9 ring below the 10.  I held a little low for this.  With the JSB heavy the rifle shoots about 4 inches low...I shot a couple of 2 1/2 groups

3. RWS 54 177, RWS 300 4X32 scope, same pellets  With Beeman Kodiaks I shot a 2 inch group about 3 inches low, and to the left.  With JSB Exact 8.2 gr the 54 shot  a two inch group in the black, anout 1 inch high and 1 inch to the left.  Next group was a 3 shot 1 1/2 group with JSB 8.2 gr 2 inch low and left.  With JSB heavy 10.2gr the 54 shot a 2 inch group about 6 inches low and a 1nch to the left.   I also shot at the same sliver of wood, and Chuck was surprised that I could hit it 3 out of 3 times!  I knew where to hold...so no problem

4. RWS 48/52 with a RWS 450 3X9 42mm scope 177  With the JSB 8.2 gr pellets I shot a 1 1/2 group 1 1/2 low and left.  Next group with same pellet was a 4 shot 2 inch group 4 inches high 1 inch left...I held high for this one.  Third group was a 3 inch 4 shot group with Beeman Kodiaks center, with center hold  Last group was a 1 1/4 inch group with JSB heavys 5 inches low.

I cleaned the bores on these air rifles before shooting and got lead out of all of them.  I also fired about 10 shots at the wood sliver to warm up the guns and ready the barrel.  

Note:  In order to shoot these groups I had to hold exactly the same from shot to shot...including locking through the scope.  Best results were I held the rifles very loose, just touching my shoulder.  Any change in hold would throw a shot several inches!  Not so with the RWS 54 recoil less air gun.  This one likes to be held firm...like a 22 rifle bench rest...but must hold exaxtly the same.

Note:  Allthe rifles were zeroed at 25 yards.  I did not change the scope's settings.  If you know balistics you know that a pellet is climbing and will cross the line of sight on the way up...25 yards where gun is zeroed.  This is the first "point-blank" range.  The second "point blank" range where the pellet crosses the line of sight again on the way back down...seems to be near 100 yards.  Thats why I did not have to hold way high.  The pellet may climb 20 to 30 inches above line of sight...somewhere in between 25 and 100 yards, with a 25 yard zero...I don't know.  David with his "Chair-Gun" said the pellet will drop 30 inches or so...true, but barrel is aimed up above the line of sight and pellet is climbing, then falling back through the line of sight neetr 100 yards.  I will photograph the targets and post them if I can.

Spring guns can be shot at long range...you need a magnum gun, and a very good hold, a good machine rest, and no wind.  Once I shot in a light breeze and it was a cross wind, the pellets were blown about 10 inches to the side.  22 long rifle out of my CZ was blown less than an inch.  I was shooting the AR-50 50 BMG that day, and the 650 gr 50's were not moved at all!  But I only shot a 3 inch group with the thing.  Several people at the range (Outback Park in Kansas) wanted to fire the RWS air rifles, they were impressed with the air rifles more than the 50 BMG...only one person and his girl friend wanted to fire the firty...they both did!

Before you say 100 yards is too far for a spring gun...try it!  But use a good Magnum gun, and a good hold.  I fired several off hand rounds with the 350 and 54 using the different pellets, and hit several bowling pins, and slivers of wood at 100 yards.  The pellets could not move the pins at all.  At 25 yards I could knock down a bowling pin...if I hit it near the top.  (Shooting on the 25 yard pistol range)  This was a very fun and relaxing day of 22 and air rifle shooting.  The chalange to everyone is:  "Best group with a spring gun" at 100 yards.  Any sights, any holds, any pellets.  I shoot center fire bench rest and was shooting from my front rest and sand bag, and rear bag rest...but hold and trigger control is very important...or you'll throw a shot off the target.  Good pellets are a must.
Douglas George

Offline ronbeaux

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RE: 100 yards again
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 12:49:45 PM »
Pics?

Offline Progun

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 01:58:45 PM »
Awesome shootin' there Doug. I like to take a poke at things way out there sometimes and it can be done.I think that shooters who haven't tried long range target shooting  or don't have access to long enough ranges, can't appreciate the relative difficulty of shooting 100yds with a low energy (relative) air rifle. It's a lot like muzzle loader shooting punkin' balls. As for hold over or kentucky windage, I suspect that a lot of shooters just can't imagine holding 2-3 feet or maybe more over the target with any realistic expectations of landing the shot right smack dab on the target. But that's essentially how it's done. You can adjust your sights or have a high aim point. It's a lot of fun if you got a big enough playground. Several years ago at a family gathering I had nephews, brothers, uncles,cousins, nieces and aunts shooting 1 gal paint can lids on a board that was 166 yds away.That day I used a Diana 350 mag in .177 shooting cpl's. Now nobody had to do any hold over that day as I had adjusted the adjustable mount and the crosshairs to be centered on the 8" disc at that distance. The guests were ALL able to hit the lids more than they missed. My personal best was a unlucky starling that got whomped by a humble Diana 34 .177 with a 4 foot hold over. You can guess the distance on that one.As for good groups, I tip my hat to yours.I figure anything inside of four inches at 100 yds with springers is pretty darn good shootin'.If all of the pellets were perfect and weight matched you'd stand a better chance on tennis ball sized groups but that takes so much effort that I wouldn't do it unless money or braggin rights were worth it.Thanks again Doug for taking the time to show it can be done on the good days.

Offline MEHavey

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RE: 100 yards again
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 02:35:33 PM »
>
>  2. RWS 350 Magnum 177 air rifle I shot this air rifle bench rest, using JSB 8.2 gr Exact,
> JSB 10.2 gr Exact Heavy. and Beeman Kodiak.  The air rifle has a RWS 30mm 6X42 scope
> and is zeroed at 25 yards with Beeman Kodiaks. With two people watching I hit a sliver
> of wood at 100 yards 3 out of four times. First shot missed...finding aiming point.
> On target: with JSB Exact 8.2 gr the air rifle shoots about 2 1/2 high at 100 yards.
>

I'm sorry, Douglas, but I just can't make that happen w/ my physics.

Offline douglas george

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 04:46:23 PM »
MEHavey:  I just report what I did with the air guns.  Physics and charts say a Bumble Bee can't fly too.  I was surprised how well the air rifles shot!  I would not have reported this, if it had not happened.  Tommrow I will use my shops 5 megapix camera and photograph my targets.  And if I can figure out how...post them here.  I teach Physics, Tech Math, and Astronomy at BCC.  I used to design Sounding Rockets and I used a program called "Roger's Aerospace" to model the flight path of the rocket.  Mach, alititude, burn out velocity, coasting time and speed, second stage ignation.  The birds did not always follow the perdictions...but were close.  With the air rifles at 100 yards, I never had to aim several feet high, only a few inches.  Again does your 'chair gun" take in to account that the pellet does climb way above the line of sight through the scope...and then back down thrugh the line of sight again.

I would like to see fellow air guners try this kind of shooting...I think they will be surprised with what they can do.  Try if first!  Then say if it cannot be done.  Use g=9.8m/s/s, figure in the vel (average) and that  will tell you how far the pellet falls from the line of sight out of the barrel durning the time of flight d=1/2 gt squared.  The pellet is in flight for only about a second or so.  Remember it starts out at around 900fps or so, and it will travel the 300ft in about a second or two...and the barrel is aimed up...the pellet is climbing, it will reach its max altitude and then start to fall.  To make your graph of the flight path...draw the line coming out the barrel (climbing stright line)  Figure where and when the pellet will be on the horizonal, then draw the distance the pellet has fallen from that point.  that point will be some distance above the height of the target, when you draw your distance fallen from that point, that will be where it,  pellet is at that point in its flight.  Average speed is distance covered over time interval...velocity of object falling is v=gt, velocity aquired=acceleration X time.  How far it falls is distance traveled=1/2(acceleration X time X time)  This is kinda like a "hang time" calculation for a jumping basketball player  The relationship between time up or down and vertical height is given by d=1/2gt squared,  time in vertical height is t= square root of 2d/g
Douglas George

Offline Progun

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 05:36:10 PM »
I'm glad I'm undereducated so I don't have to figure all these equations out.I am such a simpleton that the only way I would be able to figure out trajectories would be to get a stand up board at least 6' tall.Using an aimpoint near the top of the board,shoot a 25yard zero group at the aimpoint. Back off 25 yds and shoot again at the aimpoint. Back off 25 more yards and shoot another group at the aimpoint.Back off another 25yds and shoot my 100 yd. groups at the aim point.My groups would be staggerd in four distinct groups hopefully and I could see the relationship of the amount of drop that occurs as the pellet travels farther downrange before impact.If my POI is dead on my aim point at 25 yds I would expect each 25 yd increment to reflect the effects of gravity and diminishing velocity on the target The first two groups ,25 and 50 yds should be pretty close to each other but 75 and 100 yd groups should be farther apart  from each other by quite a lot..But Doug, I'm with you, I'd like to see others here try this kind of shooting. It's fun.Ill take your challenge to at least set some targets up and see what can be done, hopefully soon.Fishing is heating up here and Turkey season opens in a few days so it may take awhile.

Offline MEHavey

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 12:52:42 AM »
>
> I'd like to see others here try this kind of shooting.
>

But I have, Dave.  

Please see
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14094&posts=13#M114851

Take a look at the adjustment necessary (written on the target) and realize that once the pellet leaves the muzzle, it doesn't know whether it came from a 27ft-lb PCP or a 21 ft-lb Springer -- only that Newton rules its life.  The required clicks 'up' is exactly what the ballistics tables predict.

By that same physics, a 21ft-lb (1,040fps) .177/8.4gr JSB Exact would have to be sighted four inches high at 25 yards to zero out at 100.

Offline douglas george

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 04:19:28 AM »
David:  That is the best way to do it!  You can follow the pellet ist entire flight that way!  I have also done something like that too.  I had a moving target stand...and I shot at 25 yards, 50 yards, and 80 and 100 yards with it.  I was surprised how "flat" the pellets flight path was!  More like a 22 standard vel long rifle , not like the "pellets paths on "Chairgun".  Fishing is getting good here...catfish!  maybe I will put the air guns away, and spent more time at the river, and the lakes.  I am glad there is no GTA for fishing...think of the hornets nests you would stirr up there!  Also ground hog shooting time is coming...I'll be warming up my 22-250's and my 222, and 22 Hornet...the air rifles will put away.
Douglas George

Offline douglas george

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 04:49:16 AM »
MEHarvey:  I looked at your target...that is good shooting!  I am happy to see other people shoot at 100 yards.  One qiwstion I have is:  Zeroed at 25 yards with JSB heavys 10.gr.  Air rifle shoots 4 inches hight at 100 yards!  Why?  Maybe the pellet that crossed the line of sight at 25 yards has not got far enough away to be crossing back down again through the line of sight yet?  Most of my RWS guns have the "Lockdown" mount...I think this mount tips the scope tube slightly down,  which would make the pellet shoot higher, as you back a way from the target.  I will try to get photos of my targets to post...I just have trouble "posting them".  I am now getting 'burned out" on air guns...prairie dog hunting will start soon, so I am getting out the 22-250's , my 222, and the 22 Hornet...air rifles will be put away.  Long range varmint shooting is about to start.  You can't hit a "dog" at 350 yards with a pellet gun, but you can with a 22-250!  55gr A-MAX 33.6 gr 4064.

 Today I shot my RWS 350 at 25 yards with the 8.4 gr JSB Exact (rifle zeroed at 25 yards with Beeman Kodiak) and guess what!  25 yard group was 4 inches high!  Physics does not lie.
MEHavey: Thanks for your posts!  I am learning from them...it is also great that you shoot at long range too.  I am from Charlottesville and I do get back there.  This summer, or late spring I will be back for a visit...I will bring a couple of magnum springers with me...and the big bore PCP, maybe we could link up and shoot!  I can shoot in C'vill at the Rivinia Rifle and Pistol Club
Douglas George
Douglas George

Offline Magnum

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Re: 100 yards again
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 06:30:13 AM »
Ok since the last round on 100yard disscussion, I built myself a hundred yard range(307feet to be exact), basically a cut a path thru the forest and has turned out to be a point of great interest and disscussion because everyone wants to give it a go :)  
    I understand trajectory bullet path , I've be playing with it for years... air rifles and lower velocities have a more drop, more like a lobb once you get out there :) I typically like to make things logical first, then look at the details, well what is logical to me that is!  Basically what I'm thinking here is that a pellet leaves the barrel and starts to drop, so I hold gun up higher than the target at 100yds to hit it. I'm not sure where the pellet would first cross the line of site other than it does. Its been fun teaching my sons about trajectory ballistics it has sparked alot of curiosity, drawings on the kitchen table and of couse the what if's  I just love that part :)  etc..
    My youngest 12yrs must have my logic, he has develped a cool method so everyone can hit the target as follows and darn it, it works!: 100yds for a Magnum is half of a pinky thickness at arms length for a 100yds and for medium power is a whole pinky thickness at arms length and finally for pistols, low power,target rifles he said  is not worth trying and not fun! So there you have it, Easy huh:)   BTW our target board is 20"x20" my RWS 350mag is seems around 28" hold best I can tell. When I have more time I'll get into the details and I will figure out how to group around 2" Hmmm  and let Ya'll know:) always having a blast while airgunning, Tony.