Author Topic: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?  (Read 4907 times)

Offline larspawn

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Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« on: April 29, 2009, 02:07:29 PM »
Okay so I hear about short lock time abeing best for accuracy and that longer time in the barrel means less accuracy.  So what is the truth?  So should a TX200 carbine be more accurate than a MKIII?  This is counter intuitive to bullet rifle users.  I've heard that max velocity is achieved after about 12 inches so anything longer is more prone to flinch.  Oh, and I would surmise this theory only holds with scoped rifles since a longer barrel would give you a longer sight plane.  Any thoughts?
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Offline geewhiz380

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 02:27:41 PM »
ANDY I HEARD OPPOSITE BUT FROM MY EXPERINCE IN SHOOTIN I FIND THAT LONGER BARRELS R BETTER FOR ACCURATECY ITS THE PELLETS THAT U NEED TO KEEP THE ACCURATCY SO I USE DOME FOR DISTANT OR POINTED ONES. FOR SHORT 20 YDS I USE SUPER H POINT OR WADCUTTERS BUT OTHERS THAT R MORE EXPERINCE WILL CHIME IN SOON MY 2 CENTS

Offline Graham

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 01:35:28 AM »
Accuracy is about the same, but shorter barrels increase recoil.

Offline daveshoot

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RE: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 02:52:00 AM »


The longer barrel gives you more sight radius if you are shooting open sights.



I don't think there is anything intrinsically more accurate about longer barrels. Once the pellet has achieved max velocity, the rest is just drag on the pellet and more time for unwanted movement. Graham's observation about the recoil might have an indirect effect on accuracy, though.



Even ina powder burner, what accuracy benefit would the barrel length yield once the gases are consumed?

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Offline speedturtle

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 03:13:30 AM »
This was taken from this article: http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/

" “All Great Truths Start as Blasphemy” -George Bernard Shaw

Appropriate barrel length for sniper rifles has been debated at length in tactical communities and online forums alike. In the spirit of GPS Defense’s teaching principle of deciphering the truth out of the piles of opinions by testing a theory and seeing the results first hand, we decided to put the barrel length issue to rest.

As our previous students can attest, and as you will experience in any of our classes, we often choose to prompt our students to figure out the answer to a question or previously held belief on their own. Chances are, we have encountered their question or opinion many times before and we have learned that the reason they are led to believe a certain point is simply because somebody else told them it was so. If we do the easy thing by simply telling them the correct answer, the truth we tell them will have no more weight in their mind than the possibly incorrect information that has been unquestioned and passed down from person to person.

Simply put, barrel length (within reason) does not affect accuracy within a manner many people believe. My personal rifle, based off of a Remington 700 action, has an 18" .308 barrel. When people see my rifle, they often ask, “How much does that affect the accuracy?”

Their question, although a valid one, is usually asked in such a way that assumes accuracy must have been compromised in order for the barrel to be so short. The exact opposite is true.

My rifle came from the factory with acceptable sub minute of angle (less than 1" group per 100yds) accuracy out of a 26" barrel. I had my barrel cut down to 18", took it out to the range and was pleasantly surprised to see the accuracy improve to a 1/2 minute of angle. Yes, you just read that right… the shorter barrel was more accurate.

When I dropped off the rifle to have it cut and re-crowned from its factory length, the gunsmith asked how short I wanted the barrel to be, and when I told him 18", he tried his best to talk me out of it. He explained to me that 20" is a “safe” length and about as short as he has seen people go while maintaining accuracy. I decided that since I was cutting the barrel to create a more manageable and compact shooting platform and partly to prove a point, I shouldn’t go to a “safe” length…. I should go shorter.

A common argument I hear from disbelievers revolves around some sort of belief that the twist rate must relate to the barrel length. This fallacy tries to say that since the twist rate of my .308 700 PSS is 1 in 12", the barrel must be cut to a length in multiples of 12 inches in order for the bullet to spin properly. This is absurd. If this was true, Remington would never ship the PSS from the factory with a 26 inch barrel. And for that matter, a 1911 style .45 with a twist rate of 1in 16" would have a 16" barrel in order to be able to hit the target.

So, if a bullet from my barrel is spinning at a 1 in 12" rate regardless of the length, why did cutting it down increase the accuracy? The answer lies in the effect of barrel stiffness. We all understand that a thicker bull barrel will provide better accuracy than a thin sportster style barrel. From this we know that a stiffer barrel helps increase accuracy by negating excessive barrel flex and vibration. The only way to stiffen an already stiff bull barrel from the factory is to shorten it. Let me explain….

Inch per inch, the barrel’s stiffness has not changed. But when taking the entire length into account, the overall effect is a stiffer barrel. Think about a 2 inch stick that is just stiff enough to be unbreakable. Now, take a stick of the same diameter with a length of 12 inches…. it would be much easier to break. Each individual inch of the two sticks share the same rigidity, but the longer stick allows more leverage to be imparted on the stick and therefore nets less overall stiffness and more leverage.

So, by cutting the barrel, the twist rate was not affected and the barrel was relatively stiffer. The only other concern lies in whether or not the powder has enough time to burn before the bullet leaves the barrel. This should not affect accuracy since it should burn consistently whether or not it burns completely. The only problem will in fact lie in the change in velocity of the bullet.

At 100 yards, I found absolutely no change in the point of impact of the bullet from the longer 26" original length to the new shorter 18" length. I did, however find a significant difference at longer distances.

At our 920 yard target on our range, school rifles with standard length barrels are able to hit the target with a 34 minute of angle adjustment above their 100 yard zero. When I first shot my rifle to compare the bullet drop from my rifle with the short barrel to the school rifles, I was using 168 grain Federal Gold Match ammunition and recorded hits at 39 1/2 minutes up from my 100 yard zero. That translates into a little over 50 inches of difference between the barrel lengths at 920 yards!

After realizing that the powders used by Federal (ammo I used) and Black Hills (ammo the students use) may burn at different rates, I decided to re-test my rifle with the 175 grain Black Hills Match ammunition that our students use. When using the same ammo, my rifle only needed 36 minutes of elevation in order to hit the target. Based on changing the ammo, I had a 3 1/2 minute change at 920 yards! Using consistent ammo and consistent environments, my 18 inch barrel only requires two additional minutes of elevation to engage a target 920 yards away!

With a more manageable, compact, lighter, and more accurate rifle only requiring only 2 more minutes of angle at 920 yards, I see no reason to not cut down a barrel on a sniper rifle. Still don’t believe me? Enroll in a class and I will shoot my short barrel rifle next to yours and you can learn what happens in the manner we suggest the most… you can see for yourself.

–Ryan Cleckner"

Comment: Even though airguns are working on a slower muzzle velocity and does not use powders to propel a projectile I think the principle of barrel rigidity still applies. Shortening a barrel does not lessen the metal's stiffness but rather "enhances" it. Working like a "whip" in motion (an exaggerated analogy) a longer barrel will have a bigger vertical deflection than a shorter barrel since the cantilever principle is more defined. With a shorter barrel it would be much harder for the same material to have a greater bending moment at the end of the cantilever because the force (due to weight) has a much shorter moment arm to deflect it. However, everything must be taken in the light of the muzzle velocity. I think PCP's have a better advantage on this one (should you want to further experiment on the idea of barrel length versus accuracy) because on some PCP-based design you can change the pressure of the air and therefore change the muzzle velocity of the pellet being used. With springers it would be very hard since we only deal with one specific type of piston spring to generate that air pressure at the chamber. I guess this is also the reason why every springer are not alike and tend to favor a certain type of pellet to another. Even if you shorten the barrel of a springer it will probably more of a trial and error since there are a  lot of variables that has to be factored in and there is no definite formula yet that can give a clear explanation as to how all these things come into play. However, I know some guys who were quite successful in shortening the factory barrels of their airguns and achieve excellent results ( C.A.P. is one of them) after shortening. A big trade-off would just simply be a harder time to cock the rifle since you have a shorter barrel to help you compress the psiton spring during cocking. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Speedturtle
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Offline Graham

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 03:50:38 AM »
Some Theoben models have 7 or 8 in barrels, but they are just as accurate as their long barreled models.
http://www.theoben.co.uk/product.php?productid=10&cat=19&page=1

Offline RedFeather

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 06:26:45 AM »
Shorter  = stiffer = less "muzzle whip".  As long as the projectile travels enough to become stabilized, you should be ok.  Firearms are a bit more complicated since you have burning powder which requires a minimum length of barrel for complete combustion.  I think that someone posted results here of cutting barrels by degrees and found that the optimum minimum for some springers is about 14".  Of course, it would be for the type of gun tested.  I guess each springer platform has its harmonic balance points.  Go too short and you may severely disrupt them and lose that synergy that CAP mentions.

Offline Timmyj1959@yahoo.com

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MY EXP. CHOPPING BRLS,,,,
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 07:40:25 AM »
I have cut a recrowned many springer brls. I cut apox. 4" off of my Gene Curtis/CDT Super Tuned Panther,,& the same on my John in PA tuned Diana 350. In both cases my velocity increased a tiny bit,,, accuracy improved quite a bit. I did 2 350 brls for Roger at Genes last Fun Shoot & did 2 Diana 34 brls for another forum member. The 2 I did for Vince I tested on my own 34,, again fps went up a tad & accuracy was better!! I would chop my current custom built/tuned J Woodcock 22 cal 34,, but,, this gun hits so hard,, shoots so smooth,,& is so darn accurate I dare not touch it!! Besides,,, J would KILL ME!!!! :o  :p  8)  It is one of those guns that just is a one of a kind performer.(J has first right of refusal) 8)  Tim.

Offline Timmyj1959@yahoo.com

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Pic. Of My 34/350 w/ Gene Curtis Breaks,,,
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 07:44:49 AM »
8) 8) 8)

Offline larspawn

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RE: MY EXP. CHOPPING BRLS,,,,
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 10:58:29 AM »
Hey all, what a topic and a wealth of information.  So, I'm getting the consensus that most all of you think the shorter barrel is more accurate.   Those thinking othewise, I'd love to hear your opinions.

So then why does the TX200 MKIII and HC have different velocities with the HC being slightly slower?  I'd assume the same power plant.  I would also think then that the HC would be more accurate but I think that most FT TXs are MKIII heritge and note HC.  Hmmmm, are we all barking up the wrong tree????
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Offline speedturtle

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 11:17:19 AM »
I haven't tried any air arms airgun yet but I think what would be more interesting to know is if the TX200 MKIII and the HC has the same barrel material and thickness. Having 2 different barrel length my guess is that they are using 2 different thickness of the barrel and probably different twist rate for the two barrel to come up with 2 unique models to offer. If not then that is a real wonder on their design philosophy. I'm also wondering if their barrels are choke even though they are below 14" in length. These two airgun models always come into discussion whenever barrel length is a concern.

I'm actually more interested on the design of the Feinwerkbau Competition Rifles. They are not that thick, long (approx. 16.73") and free floating. I wonder how these design factors will affect a springer. It seems to always favor a PCP (probably because of the less recoil factor). Well, just another experiment to think upon.

Speedturtle
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Offline Graham

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Re: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 11:11:14 PM »
According to v-mach figures, you can get another 3ft/lbs of power from a TX200MkIII over the HC, so I would think it needs the extra inches to produce maximum power. As for accuracy, there really isn't much difference.
http://airgunbuyer.com/Showproducts.asp?cat=V-Mach Custom Tuning&SubCat=V-Mach FAC Rifle Tuning Kits

Offline tonaka

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RE: Longer or shorter barrel for accuracy?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 02:54:56 AM »
I cut the barrel on my TF 99 down to 12" and it bacame tack driver. I didn't like the way it was so muzzle heavy. I tried to shoot it accurately and it was tough. But now it is very accurate. Cocking became very difficult though :)  Maybe harmonics of the rifle changed for better.
Just my two cents