Author Topic: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm  (Read 14435 times)

Offline tjk

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Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« on: July 25, 2009, 02:39:32 AM »


You know, after working on one,...cursing it, belly-acheing about parts unavailability, etc, etc, I think I've come to a conclusion here,....perhaps I've been a bit off 'following the crowd' as far as theseweapons are concernned. Maybe they're not as bad as alot of folks percieve them as,.....So here's my story.



I bought thisDaisy PowerLine1000 rifle from Ronbeaux. Not a bad $60 purchase for a 'beater' rifle,...so what can you do,...try to improve it of course!!!! Nowthe only thing Ron did to it was fill the stock with spray foam. It wasn't long before I tore into this beast to see what made her tick. It's a fairly basic rifle utilizing the same mechanics and design of most springers made. Only this one looked and felt a lot more heavy-dutier than your typical Crosman/Gamo shooter. At first glance, the internals weren't as bad as I've heard others remark about them. A bit rough around the edges, but on line with the competition as far as the deburring aspect goes in tuneing. The pistonis amonster in sizecompared to other B-18/19made formats. And unlike the G/C pistons, the seal is set, and the entirepiston isfree to turn inside the compression chamber, as opposed to the G/C's where the seal can turn freely but the piston has to remain aligned with the cocking slot groove. Call it an even trade off.



ThePiston seal onthis rifle was in asad condition. Nice big gash to the side ofit,....almost a burnt look to it. So I tried the Loc-tite remedy on the seal during the firsttune on the 1000. It worked for a brief time,....but then she started smoking from the slot once again. Tore the gun back down and the seal was even worse than it was to start with. For a little back-ground history,....I did order some replacement seals for this rifle,...but they didn't match up with the factory seals. I think I posted this earlier,...but not sure where. After a long unsuccessful search forthe correct seal, as well as un unsuccessful bid for a custom made seal, I said to hell with it,...let's see what we can do to make the replacementseal work. Snapped it on the piston, and you could see where the seal didn't completly rise to the top of the piston. Somehow the idea of the pistons metal end slamming the end of thecomp chamber didn't look too swift. Going on the "neccesity is the mother of invention" theory, I decided to shim the rear of the sealto bring it to a more acceptable position on the piston head. I ended up placeing the piston in a vise, and tightly wrapped 8# monofilimentfishing line until it filled the void between therear of the seal and the seal seat on the piston.Tied a knot in it andcontinued with the re-re-asssemblyof this rifle. Next time I'll try a rubber type washer and trim it as needed.



After a few shots to clear out the majority of the lubes in the comp chamber, she was shooting in the mid 900's with CPHP's.Even better,...no smoke/vapor eminating from the cocking slot!!!!! Finally,...got something to work right!!!!! Now for the trigger.



After researching thesetypes of rifles,...I stumbledon a web site that shed yet a little more light on the Hatsan made rifles. Now the trigger wasn't much worse than the Gamo/Crosman style triggers,...only harder to pull, with the same goofy/unpredictable sear release. But in all realitythe Hatsan trigger is in my opinion a far better and superior mechanism than the Gamo/Theobin design. I'll admit that these triggers are a PITA to assemble back to the action, but with a few tricks of the trade, it's a breeze now. Another thing I liked about these triggers is that they are solidly mounted into the action,...no sliding into place and anchored buy a single bolt. But held in place by a cross pin through the trigger into the action. The heavier components of the trigger assembly really impressed my alot. Very easy to polish and re-assemble,...except for that little spring between the sear levers. But once I found the trick to it, it's as Macarri states on his web-site,...."not an issue"! LOL's



For some reason, I could never get the adjustment screw adjusted to make any difference in the trigger pull. Turns out that when I had the trigger group in pieces, I saw that the screw never extended passed the trigger blade! Well no wonder there was no difference pittling with the adj screw?!?!?! Duh-Huhhhhh So I replaced it with a longer screw (polished end)and things sure did turn around for this rifle "Real Fast"!!! It took a while, but with some tweeking,...and probably a little 'over-tweeking' I can literalyset the trigger pull (sear release) down to ounces!!!! While it's set at a more or less "single stage" trigger,....with this kind of smooth shooting rifle with a much improved trigger,...who needs a second stage anyways?!?!?!Find the target, andfire at it. This has cut down on aim time as well!For safety sakes, I did adjust the trigger to a more healthier pull.



Other mods,...I ripped the butt-stock pad off and removed the spray foam. I replaced the this with a heavier and denser packaging /memory foam, and to me this absorbs more of the recoil. Found a good use for the Loc-tite "Extreme" glue as well!! With a simple lube tune, the recoil is nowhere nearas severe as an out of the box condition Hatsan rifle.



So here am am with a powerful, vastly much improved rifle. So how's the accuracy you ask???? Dead On!!!! I can make a quartersized group off the picnic table at 28 yards with a cheapo Tasco scope on medium rings, and occasional 'one holer' if I really try. Not to shabby for a non FT shooter like me. The best fitting and accurate pellet I've found with the PowerLine 1000 is the JSB exactsat 8.4 grains. It's averaging 890 to 920 fps's. But since the JSB's are a bit pricey,...the next best pellet seems to be the Beeman FTS's. Sure the velocity drops to the 870/890 fps range,...but I can accept that,.....who wouldn't?!?!?!?!? Top fps I've recorded is 968.5 with 7.9 grainned CPHP's. That's afterapost breakin. Got 1140 fps on the fourth of fifth shot after the tuning assembly,..nearly wet my pants!!! LMAO



So it seems I've changed my tune about the Hatsan rifles. Yes they are a universal PITA shooter toget parts for,...but once you figure them out, with a bit of patience and perseverence, they turn out to be as good,...if not even better, than any Gamo/Crosman springer made! Think I'll call her the "Black Death",.....like the plague,...a real killer.



Well that's my take on this rifle and it's maker. Hope you've enjoyed my story. Happy Shootting, Thomas



PS I'll post some pix later,...right now we're going out to play!!!! HeHeHe tjk









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Offline daveshoot

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RE: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 04:30:55 AM »


That is an excellent write up. For $60 I think the Hatsan is a very good value. If that is where they started I would recommend them heartily, and if they will rebate the other $200 I will promise to only say nice things about them!



Seriously, they do deliver the power. I have moved beyond seeking rimfire velocities in spring guns. but these are the upper end beasts of the spring world in raw energy. They are reasonably accurate.



Did your trig have the plastictrigger lever above the trigger, or was it metal? That was a big part of the problemwith this assembly.I guess I can mess with it someday, but it really seemed cheapie to me. It was poorly molded to boot.

Steroid Sheridan rocker, Daisy 990, SS1000, B26-2, QB-57, Crosman 150 (TW), Crosman 1377 x 2,  RWS5G, MP513, IZH53, RWS9N/Cometa, MP661k Drozd, Walther Falcon Hunter, RWS 34 Panther, XS-B3-1, Cummins B3s, RWS94 Cometa x 2, RWS48, Beeman R7, Daisy Avanti 853, RWS92 Cometa 220, Beeman P3, IZH-46M x 2, Daisy Avanti 747, Diana 24, B5-10, BSA Lightning .22, Crosman Marauder #39 .22, Crosman 1322 Phase 1, Diana Model 20, HW70, Shin Sung Dragon Slayer .50, Haenel Model 26, Slavia 620, HW45/.177

Offline tjk

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 07:13:04 AM »
Thanks Dave! The trigger lever on my rifle is made of a laminated pressed steel. The trigger blade is plastic, and the other two remaining levers in the assembly look to be machined steel. I polished all the sear contact points except where the upper lever catches the rear ring of the piston during lock up. I believe polishing the trigger lever on both the top and bottum sides made the biggest difference;,,,,smoother contact on the lower sear lever and a smoother surface for the trigger blade/adjustment screw to travel against. Just a light pull of the trigger and the pellet is gone. Nice "pop", zero twang and very little barrel torgue movement. If I can find some "heavies" pellets (10.5'ish grains) that will fit the breech properly, this might be the ideal rifle for them. tjk
397 Benji-98\' model    
Marksman  0035, My Fav!,CDT T\'d
Crosman Sierra-Pro,.177
Benji 392 08\'
CDT TT\'d RWS 34 .22,CP 4-16X40 AO
MM T\'d Marksman 0035
Crosman G1 Extreme
Daisy PowerLine 1000
TF-97 .22
B-28A MM T\'d
B-28 OEM Tuned by me
Beeman .22 RX-2 w/Theoben GR
Beeman .177 R1 Santa Rosa

Offline longislandhunter

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 10:24:11 AM »
Enjoyed your review Thomas.....  

I have 2 of the beasts and they  are without a doubt the hardest hitting .177's in my arsenal and their accuracy is amazing.  Yes, they are certainly crude, but I don't care... they are amazingly powerful, amazingly accurate and amazingly cheap.  Can't beat that combination  :)

Jeff
\"If it was easy it wouldn\'t be hunting, it would be shopping.\"

Offline daved

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RE: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 02:06:31 PM »
Very nice write up, Thomas.  And I'd have to say that everything you said applies to the Hatsan PCP's as well.  I've had some issues with my Hammerli Pneuma, aka Hatsan AT-44, and still do, but I'm getting it sorted out.  It'll be going up for sale soon, not because it's a bad rifle, but because I've decided I REALLY want a .22 Marauder :-).  But when it does go up for sale, someone is going to get a very accurate, very powerful .177 PCP.  How's mid-20's fpe with JSB Heavies and CPH's grab you?  Excellent accuracy, too.  Now if I could just solve that last, little air leak...  Later.

Dave

Offline ranedouglas

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RE: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 01:10:10 PM »
i've owned and sold many hatsan springers.   the first was a daisy powerline 1000 i got from walmart for $20 - it was a demo for a product they no longer carry.    we tweaked it until it shot really well.   filled the stock w/ water and a little bleach, tuned the trigger.   that gun seems to be the hatsan model 70.   it's similar to the webley jaguar and the winchester 1000 and also the do-all traps 1100.    we did notice that keeping one scoped was very challenging - even w/ locktite and heavy-duty mounts and scope stops.   the factory scope stop just snapped the screw in half.   we also noticed that they seem to have a different point of impact after they are warmed up for about 10-12 shots.  it still grouped accurately, just an inch or two down to the right.  great value of a gun, though.   we've been through a few breech seal o-rings.   that's about the only parts you can get for it from daisy.    i wanted to make a wooden stock for it and keep it as a collectable.   it's the most powerful airgun daisy's ever put it's name on - to my knowledge.    we some how fanagled daisy into an exchange and we got a winchester 1000 as the replacement - so much for the collectable gun, but it had a wooden stock.   it's sweet.   that gun's come a long way from the dusty $20 demo.    i have a .22 cal walther talon magnum from the umarex guys - it was an "R" stamped gun (refurb, or demo).    i got it for $150.   it was shooting 904 fps w/ hobby pellets.    i tuned the trigger right away and filled the stock w/ pillow stuffing.   later, i learned how to re-seal the pistons and re-lube the springers altogether.   w/ the maccari red seal, it shoots 930 fps w/ 15 grain pellets.    that's about 27 ftlbs !!    it's the most powerful gun i have.    the hatsan 125's (same as falcon hunter and talon magnum from walther) have such a recoil that i had to get a hawke scope for it - after trying several leapers and centerpoints.    it's accurate.   i would actually prefer to hunt w/ it, but i found that holding the gun up while scoping game for a shot is just too much for me w/ this heavier gun.   i use my benjamin discovery to hunt w/ - it's much lighter, but all the pcp tanks, hoses, and pumps are a pain in the ass.    too many things break.    i'm looking to make a wooden stock for the beastie (the walther talon).     it's REALLY nice to have a flat trajectory of 50-55 yards w/ .22 cal pellets.     i've been yearning to get a falcon hunter in .25 cal, but i already have the same gun.   before this gun, i was strickly a .177 guy.  seeing what this gun's capable of really changed my outlook on the heavy "lob-ster" pellets.    instead of the pellet going through the 60 yard beercan and making a metallic sound (as happens w/ .177 pellets), this gun shreds the can and knocks it out of the tree.     i'm about to purchase a webley jaguar and try to power tune it and make it into a night hunter.   i've been researching the data.   now they sell a winchester 850x here.   while the .177 version is being sold for $100, this one doesn't seem to be available for any less than $200.    i sell webleys, which are also made in the hatsan plant, but they are much better quality guns.     while they are not the english-made products that folks are used to, they are a very good deal for the $200 range, which is what i try to make available to other airgunners.   many have been repeat customers, buying another model.   while not the english and german quality presicion that we know springers are capable of, the turks are better than the chinese, americans, mexicans, and maybe even the spainish.   and you know what else ??    they pretty much do what it says on the box for velocity.    it's my hopes and desires to make hatsan brand airguns available here in the u.s.    i've just emailed them about it - again.    google "hatsan arms" and check out their airguns.   you will see that they do offer some nicely crafted airguns w/ undeniable power.    i hear that they market a better version of the walther talon magnum over here now - better triggers and different stock.    the two-holers crack too easily.     i guess it's just a question of "would americans pay an extra $100 for a nice walnut stock and nice trigger ?"    their woodwork is great.     you can check out this site for photos and details on the turkish-made webley springers :  http://www.raneair.webs.com .       ya'll take care ......and give the turks a chance.  they don't ask for much money.    - paul d self in fort worth, texas.

Offline Gene_SC

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 02:00:33 PM »
Great review Thomas.
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

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Offline ranedouglas

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm ....man, gene....
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 02:21:28 PM »
are you sure ??   seems like some of the BAM chinese are ok, but that's after much intervention from what i hear.     i still like the turks better, but i'm a magnum lover.

Offline daved

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 04:55:12 PM »
I don't know, Gene, from you, that sounds pretty extreme.  I was pretty sure there wasn't an airgun out there that you couldn't find something about it to love ;-).  I've had no experience with the Hatsan springers, but my experience with the Pneuma has turned out pretty well.  And one thing Paul said I really have to agree with, the Turks definitely know how to pick some nice lumber.  The wood stock I got for my Pneuma is truly beautiful, and is as good or better than anything else I've owned to date.  For those that missed it, I traded the original factory synthetic stock for a wood stock from an Air Venturi Halestorm, the repeater version of the Pneuma imported by Air Venturi (Pyramyd Air?).

It's interesting to note that the PCP world has been turned upside down in the last year or so.  Before Crosman released the Disco, about the only PCP available for much under $500 was the BAM B50.  Now we have a handful of really good rifles for right around $500, and I think, in time, the Pneuma and Halestorm will be counted among those.  Remember the BAM guns when the B50 first hit the scene?  Pretty rough around the edges, and there are a few tuners that have made their mark turning those pigs ears into silk purses :-).  The B50/51 was a big jump in quality for BAM, but still rough around the edges.  I think the Hatsan PCP's will eventually be seen the same way, especially if they can get the price down.  All we need now is a Big Ed for the Hatsan PCP's, and a few more people shooting them.  Maybe I should start "tuning" Hatsans, I need a job and on one else seems to be interested ;-).  Later.

Dave

Offline Gene_SC

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 11:56:00 PM »
Guess I was a bit hasty guys with my words. Just seems everytime I hear Turkish made guns I get gas pains..:) Edited out the negative stuff.
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

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Springer Tunin

Offline daved

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 02:37:23 AM »
Hey, Gene, I was teasing, pal, no need to change anything you said.  Unlike some, your opinions are based on hands on experience, which makes them far more valuable than the guy who makes up his mind based on stuff he's read or heard, or the guy that's trying to sell something.  Sorry, Paul, regardless of how much truth there is in your post, it's still going to be colored by the fact that you're trying to sell these things.  And I ran into a lot of the former type when I was trying to sell my Pneuma.  Too many people out there that think Hatsan=Junk that have never laid their hands on one.  Later.

Dave

Offline ranedouglas

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 03:29:23 AM »
hey, i understand.   i make about $30 off each new gun i sell.   it was looking really nice for about three weeks - almost sold one per day.   then, sales really dropped and i haven't sold any for the last three weeks.    my guess is that there aren't that many of us out there.    i beleive that r.beeman once said that adult airgunners (those that can fathom spending $200 on a pellet gun because we are educated in what they are capable of doing) make up about 5% of the total airgun / bb gun market here in the u.s.   most folks have the idea of a plastic bb shooter seared into their heads here in amaerica.    i just cringe when i see someone buying an airgun at acadamy sports or walmart (i usually give them a card).     most of my mentors and the 'upper-classmen' here have owned a beeman, HW, FWB, u.k. webley.    those are really nice airguns, but i suffer a bit, too from not being able to spend too much on an airgun.   i have a really hard time justifying spending over $200-250 on one.     i did for my rws 350 mag, though.    i just wish that hatsan would find a way to market "hatsan" brand stuff over here.   i most likely going to run ads all through the chrismas season to sell these turkish webleys at near cost.    i just wanted to be able to offer the turk webs to others and let them get a deal like got - a great gun for $200.   you'd need to make about $100 of each gun to offset the time of doing good customer service and warranty services.    that $20-30 bucks doesn't even support my airgun habit, much less pay any bills.   maybe one day i'll be feeling "gherri-rich", and get an r9 or a patriot.   ......it's like that old 280zx commercial........."someday"...

Offline PeakChick

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Re: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 12:49:48 PM »
I feel compelled to offer my opinion here, both on the Turkish made Webleys and on value spending on air rifles in general. I missed out on buying a English made Webley when they were still available, and for what I see now as "bargain" prices. I did obtain two of the Hatsan built Webleys, a Tomahawk and a Longbow. I was enthused about getting those rifles, the Longbow in particular. I was trying hard to look at the bright side of the Webleys being built in Turkey. I thought, "OK, so Webley is having a hard time making a price competitive product with the prohibitive manufacturing costs associated with their facilities in England. We've all seen that happen in many other western nations, including our own." I read how they were moving the Welbey machinery, and the engineering staff from England was involved in the new manufacturing facility. I had some smalll knowledge of Hatsan already, primarily from their powderburner shotguns. I did some research on Hatsan and saw were they had ISO 9001 certification. I thought "great, they can do a good job with this, and the great Webley design rifles won't disappear."

I was initially very impressed with the Turk Webleys I received. Very decent wood, they had stuck to the patterns of the original design. Then I started shooting them. For the first few hundred pellets, after the horrible detonation quit, (this was after the most lengthy cleaning I had ever had to do on any air rifle) they began to shoot quite nicely. The very bad triggers, I mean very bad, were an obstacle, but I was able to get them to shoot and group pretty nicely. Then the problems started. Scopes moving on both, despite good mounts and stops. POI shifting, violent recoil developing, particularly in the Tomahawk. Cocking got gritty. Things just went south. Visual inspection of the internals revealed very bad internal issues, metal shavings trapped in the internals, etc. I finally gave up and sold mine on the cheap. with the caveat that who ever bought them would do so knowing they needed to go to a home where the new owner was willing to open them up, correct the issues and try to make them as good as they were going to get. Sorry, but good riddance. In my opinion, both Webley and Hatsan did a huge injustice to the Webley name and their design. If, and I mean if Hatsan had stuck to the original design specs. for the Webleys, this could have been a good marriage. The biggest flaw was Hatsan insisting on sticking their awful, once again awful, trigger in the rifles. The Hatsan trigger is the worst I have ever shot, honestly. No, sorry, the biggest flaw was the decision to market these rifles as Webleys and initially, to ask about $400.00 each for them. Sorry, I had to call this like I experienced it.

Yes, the Chinese certainly have had their growing pains, and still have QC issues. But, they seem willing, after longer than one might expect, to understand that they do have to change some initial flaws, and address QC if they want to sell in western markets. They still aren't even close to American or European QC. Heaven forbid if they ever really do figure out what real QC is, we'd all be in huge trouble given their labor, governmental and environmental issue advantages.

As for the rational that one just won't spend more than about $200.00 on an air rifle, I understand this approach and was once in a similar place. I bought a bunch of $125.00 - $250.00 air rifles and was delighted at all the different rifle I got to own and shoot. Now, after having owned all the air rifles I have, I would not do it again. I'd save my pennies, save myself the frustration and disappointment, and wait till I could buy a known, well built rifle from one of the manufacturers that has an established and deserved reputation. Yes, there are some very decent, very capable lower priced rifles. I still think it is false economy to think that if I spend $1000.00 and get 5 so-so rifles, I'm coming out ahead over the person that spends $1000.00 and gets one or two high end rifles. I'd settle for owning one HW97K over having 10 Chinese and Turkish air rifles, and my rifle would last many lifetimes.

Sorry, rant over.



The current stable, (arsenal, quiver?): BSA Lightning XL .177, BSA Sportsman HV .22, BSA Ultra .177, CZ634 .177, Daystate Harrier X .177, TAU 200 Senior .177, HW 97 .177, HW 50s .177, HW 30 .177, RWS 92 .177, Gamo 126 MC Super, Gamo Big Cat .177, AR2078A, QB78 .177, Quest 1000 .177, Beeman SS650 .177., Beeman P17 .177.
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Offline ntvinh986

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RE: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 02:26:25 AM »
Quote
daved - 7/27/2009  7:06 PM

Very nice write up, Thomas.  And I'd have to say that everything you said applies to the Hatsan PCP's as well.  I've had some issues with my Hammerli Pneuma, aka Hatsan AT-44, and still do, but I'm getting it sorted out.  It'll be going up for sale soon, not because it's a bad rifle, but because I've decided I REALLY want a .22 Marauder :-).  But when it does go up for sale, someone is going to get a very accurate, very powerful .177 PCP.  How's mid-20's fpe with JSB Heavies and CPH's grab you?  Excellent accuracy, too.  Now if I could just solve that last, little air leak...  Later.

Dave

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Offline ntvinh986

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RE: Hatsan rifles,...Hmmmmm
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 02:27:52 AM »
Quote
daved - 7/27/2009  7:06 PM

Very nice write up, Thomas.  And I'd have to say that everything you said applies to the Hatsan PCP's as well.  I've had some issues with my Hammerli Pneuma, aka Hatsan AT-44, and still do, but I'm getting it sorted out.  It'll be going up for sale soon, not because it's a bad rifle, but because I've decided I REALLY want a .22 Marauder :-).  But when it does go up for sale, someone is going to get a very accurate, very powerful .177 PCP.  How's mid-20's fpe with JSB Heavies and CPH's grab you?  Excellent accuracy, too.  Now if I could just solve that last, little air leak...  Later.

Dave

Hi all, I am a new member of forum. Would a newcomer be warmly welcome here? Good day you guys!!!
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