Author Topic: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???  (Read 35654 times)

Offline AKJC1977

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GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« on: July 26, 2009, 05:01:07 AM »
Hey, Yeah me again, I would really like a professional opinion about the advantages and disadvantages of the nitrogen pistons. I know what ya read about them. They are quiet,less recoil,not temp sensative and so on. but i really want to know the truth about them as I dont hear many ole pro's talking them up much. I have considered installing one in my Gamo and really want to know if its worth the bother. I dont want to if they are not more durable than a spring and consistent in velocity. Any info would be nice. Thanks AKJC

Offline Gene_SC

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 10:02:02 AM »
This is the answer that CDT came up with back when the gas rams came out. I strongly concur with this statement.

The Gas Venturi or gas ram....  In my opinion, I would not buy it. To me
they are not all that would appear although when they are functioning
properly there is an advantage.. that being there is no double recoil
usually and not quite as harsh. But they are harder cocking over the entire
cocking travel and there is usually a loss in velocity. How much depends on
the gun. They are very expensive to replace and longevity has always been
questionable and are not repairable and have a tendency to leak after a
while, even with the Theoben Gas Rams. Theoben was the developer of the Gas
Ram application to air guns and they only back them up 6 months.
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
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Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
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Offline lillysdad621

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 03:09:59 PM »
I must disagree. I personally have owned a shadow for 2 years now, and as a springer it was a decent, powerful enough, rifle, capable of doing squirrel size game at 45 yards. The spring got smoother and then it lost velocity, an i mean from 890 fps with 7.9 to 650s... i had to replace the spring anyway so as puzzled as you were, i took the plunge and added the venturi ram. HOLY SH!7!!! The rifle was transformed. The twang is all gone. I mean nothing, just a solid thud and a bit of rear recoil, that is all there is. Is shooting crow mags at 860 fps, cpl at 945 fps and now my favorite kodiaks, at 770fps. The rifle became a much more effective hunter, and a more serious rifle to take to the field. I had it for 4 months now and also added a trigger, and to be honest, even if it failed, i would replace it with another ram. I even got a Nikko stirling 3-10x44 to be able to do some serious long distance shots. I can go thru cans at 120 yards! I would definitely try it. Again, none of these will last forever, so you can try and change back and forth and not break the bank. But Imho it is worth every penny. And the give strings with no more than 4 fps + or - deviation. and i think is because not all pellets of the same type weight exactly the same...

Offline Big_Bill

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RE: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 04:17:31 AM »


This is just my 2 cents !



Every now and then anyone can get a bad spring, or a bad piston ! You can replace many spring, perhaps a lifetimes wort for the cost of one piston. Most that I have read find that they loose fps, not gain them.



I have reviewed the Gas Pistons for years, I wanted one, but after careful consideration, and observation, I decided to stay with the spring ! My Gamo 890S is going on 11 years, and will soon be getting a turbo tune, which cost much less than a Gas Piston installation, and is much smoother.



And my Gamo 890S will still shoot through a tomato (HEAVY) can !!! or two soda (light) cans.



Now I know that I believed that the Theoben Gas Strut was the best solution years ago, and they are very expensive to purchase and install, but Theoben's guarantee, (6 months)convinced me that they were not for me !!!



Now I never try to lead anyone into something that is not the very best, like the GRT-III trigger !! They are the very BEST !!! So you pay your money, and let us all know how you make out !



I wish everyone the BEST !!!



Bill

Life Member of The United States of America
Life Member of the National Rifle Association
Member Air Guns Addicted Anonymous
SHOOT SAFE ! - SHOOT WELL ! - SHOOT OFTEN !
Always Use A Spring Compressor ! and Buy the GREAT GRT-III & CBR Triggers, cause they are GRRRREAT !

Offline kiwi

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 06:58:57 PM »
Gene dislike gas rams because there less tuneing required.."$$$$$"
Sorry Gene couldn't resist...the opening was TO big...

peace to all air gun tuners.............

Pete
Kiwi

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If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline kiwi

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 07:03:19 PM »
One thing that bewillders me is when they design
a gun from scratch to be a gas ram gun....
Why the hell do they put a piston in then push it with
the gas ram.??....Common sence says to me use
the body of the gas ram as the piston...that way
you eliminate one complete componet....


Pete

Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline Gene_SC

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 10:39:49 PM »


Your just plain Mean Peter....:D :D



Well one thing is certain for sure. Gas rams are just a replacement for a spring. Springer manufacturers designed the spring guns from the ground up designed to utilize springs. The gas ram is only a mere replacement for the spring and there has been no design or development made to build an air gun around the gas ram like they did for the spring.



Just a point to be made..:)

THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
Springer Tunin

Offline munkybiz_9881

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RE: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 11:35:07 AM »
My friend just received a whisper with the gas ram and I really like it.

Very smooth cocking and the recoil is more managable while trying to hold on target.  This alone makes me want to try one in my cfx.  My cfx will go from 3'' groups to one hole groups at 35 yards depending on how I hold the gun while shooting.  His new whisper groups quite consistantly no matter the hold, so far not as tight as my cfx, but consistant.  

The consistancy is what Im after, I go from bipod to free hand and everywhere in between while hunting, and cant always get the same hold on the rifle.  The ram seems to be less hold sensitive (my observation only).  Anyone else notice this?

If the rams last very long at all I say they might be worth it.  I'd take a consistant 3/4" group all the time over one hole only if I can hold the rifle "just right" some of the time.

My question is can I have the cfx converted to a gas ram, and who will do this, how much $$$$?

Offline HILMAN76

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RE: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 11:46:04 AM »
GREAT THREAD:) I ALSO WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE AIR VENTURI GAS RAM..I WILL BE WATCHING THIS THREAD CLOSELY..:emoticon:
If you cant DAZZLE\'em with brilliance, BAFFLE\'em with B.S!!
Remember: Lefty loosey, righty tighty!

Offline greyskullnz

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 04:56:20 PM »
Yes CFX's can and are being converted to gas ram powerplant.

I have my Hatsan 60 (.22) converted by one of our local guys here in NZ. It has gained a whole ft/lb extra. If I use the heavier pellets in it, it is much smoother now. Cocking effort is slightly increased but spread over the whole cocking stroke, not just in the last bit.

CFX's respond well to a 650Newton ram, and produce one hole groups at 30 yards.

It costs us $170 NZ to get a ram made and installed.

I highly recommend.......

GS

Offline North Pack

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 11:22:22 AM »
Very easy to see both sides of this, - I'm still tempted to pick one up, and probably will. The "interesting" advantage around here is it isn't "temperature sensitive" - and I can tell you springers are.

Offline greyskullnz

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 01:56:38 PM »
Not temp sensitive as such if you leave them lying in the sun.

But they do have the same issues with the temperature and humidity/ pressure of air as any similar piston powerplant.

We had an experience recently with a 4" POI shift on a spring gun shoot, where the temp/pressure/humidity changed mid morning, and the gas ram air rifles were affected just as much. They get asthmatic. cough cough.

still an awesome springer upgrade IMHO.

GS :D

Offline oldpink

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RE: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 12:15:55 AM »
Quote
munkybiz_9881 - 8/12/2009  7:35 PM

My friend just received a whisper with the gas ram and I really like it.

Very smooth cocking and the recoil is more managable while trying to hold on target.  This alone makes me want to try one in my cfx.  My cfx will go from 3'' groups to one hole groups at 35 yards depending on how I hold the gun while shooting.  His new whisper groups quite consistantly no matter the hold, so far not as tight as my cfx, but consistant.  

The consistancy is what Im after, I go from bipod to free hand and everywhere in between while hunting, and cant always get the same hold on the rifle.  The ram seems to be less hold sensitive (my observation only).  Anyone else notice this?

If the rams last very long at all I say they might be worth it.  I'd take a consistant 3/4" group all the time over one hole only if I can hold the rifle "just right" some of the time.

My question is can I have the cfx converted to a gas ram, and who will do this, how much $$$$?


I just yesterday received my .22 caliber CFX with the Air Venturi gas ram installed, as the original spring snapped.
Its muzzle velocity is about the same as with the original spring, but I agree that the cocking effort feels different, although it seems about the same as with the spring.
Instead of getting progressively stiffer until the spring latches at the end, it is full resistance, with no change throughout the cycle.
I don't really consider that an issue, but then, I am no small fry (6'4"/240lbs).
The recoil impulse is a surprise, as it is brisk, without that familiar torque and faint rattle of the spring.
The accuracy is every bit as good as before, which is to say very good.
I can still print .25-.40" groups, depending on the pellet, with the JSB Exact Jumbo taking top honors.
Another very real advantage of the gas ram over the spring that I have yet to hear anyone else mention, is that - unlike with springs - the gas ram can fire any pellet you want to feed your gun, with no fear of damaging it.
This means you can launch even the super-heavyweight Eun Jins and not worry about flattening the coils of a fragile spring.
That would sure make decking larger animals easier!
Another huge advantage, although better known, should not go unmentioned, which is that a gas ram can be left cocked indefinitely, with no fear of damage.
Another plus when out hunting, as people don't usually find say a nasty old Starling sitting up in a tree who will sit long enough for the hunter to cock, load, then perforate him.

In answer to your question, you can get this same conversion by PyramydAir, who charges $110 for the ram itself, but they will install it at NO CHARGE.
I sent mine in two weeks ago, paying UPS $25 to ship and pack it.
I probably could have knocked off nearly half of that price if I had packed it myself, but I have no suitable boxes for a rifle.
PA charges only the shipping charge for the gas ram itself, which is less than $10.
Oh, you should also know that PA has some discount coupon codes out there, one of which I used by hopping on to http://www.retailmenot.com
Just feed that site the URL for pyramydair.com and it will kick back a code good for 10% off.
That allowed me to get the whole thing for less than $110 total!
Not a bad price at all.
Good luck!

Now, *I* have a problem of my own.
Since having that gas ram installed in my own CFX, I have discovered some pretty rapid scope skid.
Since both rings - B-Square two piece with four screws per ring and integral vertical recoil stop pins, both of which are engaged - are not moving, but only the scope is slicking inexorably rearward, I am unsure how to put a stop to this.
The scope has slid well over an inch rearward, after having fired only about 100 pellets through the gas ram CFX it is mounted to.
Does anyone have any suggestions how to put a stop to that slide?
The rings' clamp screws are already tightened all the way down, so it looks as if I will need to use something within the ring clamps themselves to create enough friction to put a halt to the skid.
Anyone? Anyone?
Bueller? Bueller?

Thanks

Offline North Pack

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 02:06:23 AM »
Crosman Nitro Piston Air Rifles

Crossman have licensed a gas piston technology and will be incorporating it into a range of air rifles. The word “gas piston” probably has you thinking of gas operated autoloader rifles. In the context of air guns, “gas piston” refers to the piston system of break barrel air guns. Instead of compressing a spring when cocked, they compress gas. When the trigger is pulled the piston is released, the piston is pushed forward by the expanding gas. The piston in turn compresses air which pushes the pellet out of the rifle.

From the press release:

    The heart of gas piston technology is its use of nitrogen as the power, instead of a coiled steel spring.

    Unlike steel and CO2, nitrogen isn’t adversely affected by temperature. In addition, the technology allows for much easier cocking. The nitro piston starts engaging the moment the shooter starts cocking the gun. Gas pistons can also be left cocked for long periods of time without degrading and losing velocity, the way steel springs do. Also, when a steel spring uncoils, the vibration is not only annoying, it compromises precision. “Nitro Piston technology solves both by creating a smoother cocking force and releasing the gun’s power more quickly,” said D’Arcy.

Images Zoomed Nitro Els122 Zm
Images Zoomed Nitro Piston Camo Zm

The new rifles will not be available until June, but Pyramyd Air have them available for pre-order. They claim the piston system produces a lot less noise (most of the noise from a break barrel airgun is the piston), less recoil, easier cocking and long lasting.

They are available for pre order for $324.99. They comes in .22 and .177 versions (1000 fp/s and 1200 fp/s respectively) and either either a black synthetic or digital camo thumbhole stock. They all feature a bull barrel and two stage trigger.

Air gun expert and blogger Tom Gaylord was involved in the development of the system. If he was involved it must be good! I don’t think he would risk his reputation on an inferior produc

Offline oldpink

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Re: GOOD AND BAD BOUT NITROGEN PISTONS???
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 02:41:14 AM »
Yep!
I saw the links over on PyramydAir.
I believe these new Crosman rifles are made here in the good old U.S.A., too!
No offense to you Canadians, Europeans, Aussies, and Kiwis.
 :D
You are also right that Tom Gaylord having input for this new rifle cannot be a bad thing at all.
Witness the resounding success of the Crosman Discovery, a rifle that Crosman heavily consulted him about before even putting it up for R&D.
I am happy with both of my CFXs for now, but I would probably grab that Nitro if one of them broke down completely...either that, or go for the gold and get the Discovery!
 :)