5 myths about foreign healthcare

[geiger]

don't know hom much is true or false but it's certainly interesting. take it with a grain of salt

Myth 1:
"It's all socialized medicine out there. "

Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance.


Myth 2:
"Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines."

Generally, no. Germans can sign up for any of the nation's 200 private health insurance plans -- a broader choice than any American has. If a German doesn't like her insurance company, she can switch to another, with no increase in premium. The Swiss, too, can choose any insurance plan in the country. Canadians have their choice of providers.

As for those notorious waiting lists, some countries are indeed plagued by them. Canada makes patients wait weeks or months for nonemergency care, as a way to keep costs down. But studies by the Commonwealth Fund and others report that many nations -- Germany, Britain, Austria -- outperform the United States on measures such as waiting times for appointments and for elective surgeries.


Myth 3:
"Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies"

Much less so than here. It may seem to Americans that U.S.-style free enterprise -- private-sector, for-profit health insurance -- is naturally the most cost-effective way to pay for health care. But in fact, all the other payment systems are more efficient than ours.

U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration.


Myth 4:
"Cost controls stifle innovation."

False. The United States is home to groundbreaking medical research, but so are other countries with much lower cost structures. Any American who's had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation. Deep-brain stimulation to treat depression is a Canadian breakthrough. Many of the wonder drugs promoted endlessly on American television, including Viagra, come from British, Swiss or Japanese labs.

Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation. In the United States, an MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. Under the pressure of cost controls, Japanese researchers found ways to perform the same diagnostic technique for one-fifteenth the American price. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)


Myth 5:
"Health insurance has to be cruel"

Not really. American health insurance companies routinely reject applicants with a "preexisting condition" -- precisely the people most likely to need the insurers' service. They employ armies of adjusters to deny claims. If a customer is hit by a truck and faces big medical bills, the insurer's "rescission department" digs through the records looking for grounds to cancel the policy, often while the victim is still in the hospital. The companies say they have to do this stuff to survive in a tough business.

Foreign health insurance companies, in contrast, must accept all applicants, and they can't cancel as long as you pay your premiums. The plans are required to pay any claim submitted by a doctor or hospital (or health spa), usually within tight time limits. The big Swiss insurer Groupe Mutuel promises to pay all claims within five days. "Our customers love it," the group's chief executive told me. The corollary is that everyone is mandated to buy insurance, to give the plans an adequate pool of rate-payers.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778_pf.html

the 98$ versus 1500$ is a pretty bold statement, but if it's true is should silence some skeptics.

[TCups]

It would certainly silence me if you can tell me how to do the debt service on a $1,200,000 5-year lease/purchase agreement for a modern 1.5T magnet and work console, and reading station, pay the $10,000 monthly service contract, staff with qualified technologists, pay the office rent, insurance, electric bill (do you have any concept of how much electricity, not to mention liquid helium and liquid nitrogen cryogens) a modern MRI unit costs, pay a qualified physician to read it, and pay all the supporting office staff - receptionists, transcriptionists, etc.  And that assumes you aren't injecting paramagnetic contrast agents, which would require a bit of lab work first, an IV administration set, and about a $70 dose of gadolinium.  

You might get a $98 MRI scan somewhere, but it nowhere near covers the cost of a quality MRI study and you are probably getting what you pay for.  Don't kid yourself.  

Here is what one of 1982 separate images obtained from a 1.5T multi-cannel breast coil (oh, yeah, the coil was an extra $30K or so) look like after 3-D processing and a dynamic flow analysis to map the vascularity and pick out the know cancer (on the right) and the subtle other cancer (on the left).  The patient spent 40 minutes in the magnet and had a 1-hour appointment.  It takes another 30 minutes to do the image processing and then use the DyanCAD workstation (oh, yeah, that was another $50K extra) to produce all the images that went into diagnosing the occult cancer in the opposite breast.

But the Washington Post, Reid, and the Kaiser Foundation must be right, I mean left . . .

[geiger]

beats me...i'm not in this field. that's why i took the article a bit reserved.
you should probably read the book, maybe they offer more info.

but i can vouch for point one at least. and others seem true. 5 especially.
2 is neutral. point 3 could also pretty much nail the whole argument.

[TCups]

Health care is the mother of all entitlements -- it would put approximately 1/7th of the US private sector economy in the hands of politicians like Nancy Pelosi, Barny Frank, and yes, Barak Obama.
Medicare and Medicaid are already bankrupt -- state run health care will be an unmitigated disaster.  The current multi-trillion dollar deficits piled up already are small change compared to the State imposed financial burden socialized health care will impose on our economy, for generations to come.  The majority of the American public oppose State run health care.  We oppose it passionately and vocally.  No left wing columnist for NPR, Washington Post, or liberal think tank propaganda will ever convince me otherwise.  

I for one will rise to oppose socialized medicine, and will vocally counter any opinion to the effect that any part of having the US government control my health care or anyone else's health care is fundamentally wrong, fiscally disastrous, and is a policy driven by amoral power hungry politicians.  I will do this every time, every post, every opportunity, so help me God.  

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE is WRONG.  Wrong for me, for you, or for any thinking American who values personal freedom and Constitutional rights.

BTW, geiger, are you even a US citizen?  Just asking.  

[geiger]

suit yourself, i don't mind. i'm just reporting interesting news/facts and comment on others.

i've said numerous times i'm not a US citizen. but i'm keeping note on what's going on there.

[North Pack]

Understand geiger, - the BBC makes their living on U.S. news. Without it, - their readership/income would go off a cliff.

[HILMAN76]

I think NPR radio had a topic on this today? And we know what side NPR leans to...Exactly!

[Big_Bill]

I wish that I could speak intelligently on the subject of Health Care.

But I can say, that everything that OUR politicians have touched, has become another GIANT HOLE, that no matter how much money we have given, or has been taken from US, has always ended in in HUGE deficits !

Social Security would be rolling in money, IF the politicians had not used this money for no interest, and low interest loans to the government, and in some cases was never repaid at all ! The Social Security fund would have over a Trillion dollars in it today ! Mismanagement ?

Allowing the government to control Health Care, is the same as giving me a scalpel, and letting me perform brain surgery on YOU ! Letting the inmates run the mental asylum, or your health care !

All that I can say is, if you approve of National Health Care, YOU haven't read the 1,500 pages of the Bill, so your just as qualified as I am to perform brain surgery as I am !

P.S. If OUR Representatives were going to be covered by this Health Care Plan, I might believe that it was possibility would be O.K., but I believe it would also become another GIANT HOLE that we would also need to through money for the rest of time. If this was not so, Social Security, Medicare, and Veterans Medical Care and every other Government Program would be solvent right now !

It is bad enough that we have unqualified persons runningOUR country, with questionable motives ! Do you want them controlling your Health ???

Please GOD, HELP US ALL,,,,,PLEASE !!!!!

Bill

[TCups]

In the name of "Health Care Reform", "Environmnetalism", "Green Jobs", and "Save Our Planet", "Carbon Credits" and "Cap and Trade"well meaning folks, content for now to believe the good intentions of those in power in our government, are letting America be looted and our future be sold into financial slavery.  It is a Socialist revolution cloaked in what sounds like high-minded democratic principles and progressive activism.

How can I put this?  (I mean no *_*_*_*_*_*ism here -- swap male/female if it helps you get your hands around it).

Consider you fall in love with an beautiful woman.  She is attractive, lovely, and the best new thing in your life for some time.  You marry her and all seems like it is going to be wonderful.  But then, you find out that your new love is a shopping addict.  She buys expensive clothes, cars, appliances, vacations, what ever --  you try to reason with her, but to no avail.  And it's worse.  She is not only spending money on herself, but she is spending money on her other friends.  Friends you never new she had.  Lavishing expensive gifts on them.  Throwing outrageous parties where the food and drink flow freely.  You have no control over her behavior.  And every expense is being charged to your credit card.  You file for divorce.  You try to cut up her credit cards.  But no use -- she has more and even though you are separated and a divorce is pending, she is still using your credit cards and there are mind-boggling bills piling up that you will eventually have to pay but have no real hope of paying no matter how hard you work for the rest of your days.  "Holy crap!  How did this ever happen?  I thought I knew this woman!"  Maybe she even bought you some nice presents along the way (all on your credit card, of course).  She was so attractive and appealing, and the honeymoon seemed like total bliss.  But now  you are bankrupt and totally screwed and you are going to have to deal with the bills that were piled up -- not her.

Well, folks, the current government (and I don't say Republican or Democrat -- it makes no difference) has your credit card.  There is party going on and you are the one on the hook for trillions of dollars of debts that are rolling up.  And a terrible bill and all the economic consequences that come with bankruptcy, financial ruin and poverty are surely coming.  Your wealth -- your savings, your retirement, your medical benefits, your property value -- is being looted and redistributed in a massive orgy of government spending and liberal party going, courtesy of an attractive mate you tied the knot with.  And you need to wake up and figure out what is happening and why, and realize what it means for you, your family, your kids and grandkids, and for the very future of America as we once knew her.  Please wake up!  Please think about it. Please consider carefully when onlookers from Canada, or France, or Argentina or Cuba or any other damned left-leaning, socialist country stick in their opinion, "report the interesting facts", and seemingly cheer on the coming financial destruction of free market capitalism, personal freedom and individual responsibility,  and in fact, our very nation.

[geiger]

TCups - 8/28/2009  4:57 AMWell, folks, the current government (and I don't say Republican or Democrat -- it makes no difference) has your credit card.  

finally were making progress. it all get's better when you realize both  are screwing you.

And you need to wake up and figure out what is happening and why, and realize what it means for you, your family, your kids and grandkids, and for the very future of America as we once knew her.  Please wake up!  Please think about it. Please consider carefully when onlookers from Canada, or France, or Argentina or Cuba or any other damned left-leaning, socialist country stick in their opinion, "report the interesting facts", and seemingly cheer on the coming financial destruction of free market capitalism, personal freedom and individual responsibility,  and in fact, our very nation.

look...our country is one of the most taxed nations in the world. i should be naturally against socialism and i am to some extent. some socialist ideas are good and some are not. but corruption and dishonesty lies in both systems, so don't go around arguing one is better than the other.

to me it seems you want an anarchy where there is no government, idealistically speaking. but in practical terms you want the US just like the forefathers envision it. so to anyone who want's that, if you ever vote for the usual democrat/republican candidate you're being a hypocrite. none of the current celebrity US politicians strive to that goal. so arguing that you want your america back like it was, needs to be more specific.  

on the next election i guess most of you will vote for the republican side. unless you vote for someone who's openly for going back to the roots you're spitting in your own cup.

i want a country where minimal care and security is provided to anyone (legal) who is trying to be a part of the society or contributing to it. you want a country where nobody get's anything. having a kid die because of a rotten tooth is not my idea of a modern society.
although our system has problems (political in nature) i like the idea of having the option to pay for higher standard treatment.
for dental work...the doctor is obligated only to give you the currently cheapest material for filling cavities. if you pay additionally they give you the best known treatment.
also the time i twisted my ankle...i was offered for an additional fee to get that plastic cast instead of normal gypsum. i'm fine with this system, those who are rich get state of the art care, others less fortunate at least have a fighting chance.

as for government mismanagement...ever thought why are they mismanaging? because it's in their interest, the more people are confused the more they can steal from them.
national health care as i see it, must be totally transparent, have their managers elected by the people not by the appointed minister, having a locked fund so  money can be drawn out of it for other sectors, tax should be regulated and adjusted depending on the state of the system. these are just some broad points that would help, but we get none of that now so all the tax money just goes into a dark bottomless sink.

you have the right to arms which were intended to be used against a tyrannical government, you can have the president impeached. we have none of this, so why don't you act already? i'm sure there are many "democrats" that feel the same way as you, get together and march to Washington. and i really mean it, do it! actually, i'd probably support it
my opinion as to why you can't get "democrats" to join your movement is because the second they realize you're actually republican using the "forefathers idea" as a smoke screen, they run away. i think the forefathers were libertarian and that's why you should form a third independent movement/party to gain any respect.
the US is one of the most ideologically rich countries in the world...and yet on election time you have just two viable options, tell me how utterly stupid is that?

[TCups]

Geiger:

Kind sir, you demonstrably seem to have no concept of what I, as an American citizen, want or expect of my government, or what realization(s) I may have come to which account for the "progress" you seem to feel I (we) have made.  I did not vote for the current administration nor do I spit in my own cup.  I do not sanction or wish for anarchy or socialism or violence or financial irresponsibility.  I am a conservative and a free market capitalist.  I believe in law and order.  I believe in a government that serves at the will of the people, not vice versa.  I have always been this and will always steadfastly be so.  I am a strict Constitutionalist by philosophy.  I believe the Founding Fathers of the USA and those who drafted our Constitution got it right the first time.  I don't believe America needs to be "re-made" or "re-formed" by any [blanking] politician or dogmatic political philosophy.  I oppose and will continue to oppose by all legal means the entire "social" agenda of our current government.  I suspect (hope, pray) that a majority of other responsible US citizens who vote in our upcoming elections have come, or will soon come to that realization.

Thank you for your OP about the five myths about "foreign" healthcare, even though I consider them totally irrelevant to my positions on socialize medicine and the political policies currently being pursued at break neck speed by the newly elected US government.  

As for Canadian politics, I shall try to refrain from being so bold as to make public value judgements or concrete suggestions about how or what you folks up north need to do to fix your government or your health care system, if anything.  That, sir, is patently none of my damned business, being that I am a US citizen. eh?  Think carefully about that last sentence.  Thanks.

[geiger]

excelent. i'm totaly fine with the points you made and i respect them. some even are agreeable. IMO being a constitutionalists is probably the truest way an american can be american, you'll find very little of the original ideas in the modern US political situation.

so it all comes down to, who did you vote in the last election and what party are you going to vote at the next? your words hold no water if you don't abide by them when most needed. at election time. (don't need to answer it if you don't want, just think about it)

i'm proud to say i voted for the party, at our elections, that i saw best suited my needs, despite it just got only 14% of votes. will you do the same, that's what counts!

[TCups]

Excellent, indeed sir.  

Maybe next time, given the current situation, there will be a more appropriate choice than John McCain.  And, being a student of history myself, I read a bit of the classics, and hence know about Cicero and the "chick pea's" views on politics and the structure of government.  Senate, People and Republic!