Minute of Angle / the problem of Air Rifles vs. Rim Fire

[TCups]

I must confess that I have been seduced by the darker than dark side of target shooting, having at least partially put aside air gunning for the pleasure of shooting my rim fires at 50 yds and 100 yds. The new challenge for me is to achieve minute of angle accuracy with my .22LR at 50 yds (0.5 in. or less, center to center) and with my 17 HMR at 100 yds (1.0 in. or less, center to center).  But alas, it isn't possible to shoot for MOA with a rim fire in the back yard.  That being a problem, I think I am going to start trying for MOA groups with my air rifles, more so than shooting individual matches for a while.  At least long enough to demonstrate to myself which of the air rifles are potentially capable of MOA groupings.

MOA at 100 yards with an air rifle would be incredibly good shooting, although I suppose one might achieve MOA at 50 yards.  Geometrically, though, .25 in. CTC at 25 yards, or .30 in. CTC at 30 yards would, indeed be MOA accuracy with an air rifle.  On the rim fire forums, to qualify for the "MOA Club", one must shoot two 5-shot groups and two additional single shots on a specified target.  The formula is, then, to take the largest diameter of each 5-shot group (outside to outside) and average them, take the diameter of each single shot and average them, then subtract the average diameter of the single pellet from the average diameter of the 5-shot group.


The targets used are typically 1-inch cross targets, like these, lifted from Rimfirecentral.com

Do any of you target shooters have an interest in starting a air rifle 25 yard or 30 yard "MOA Club"?

[JQR]

I'll play!!!
I'm good to 30y at home. And I can get longer on Dad's property, maybe a full 100y.

I'd want to to test any progess I make at scaled down distances on a full 100y range. But at full range the slightest wind, pellet drop, slight power inconsistancies will magnify any error that may or may not be seen at 30y.

I've been itching to do something different anyway.

[kirby999]

I've only achieved the MOA with rimfires (.22LR) at 100 yards with one rimfire , it was a tricked out 10/22 shooting Wolf Match Target ammo. One of 10 (yep, I had 10 of them at one time ) 10/22's I used to own . All of them would shoot MOA ( .5" ) at 50 yards , but doing it at hundred was another story . I sold them off and bought up a few CZ 452's , bolt action .22's . I'm down to 3 of those now. I once had a full stock CZ bolt action .22 magnum that would consistently shoot sub MOA with CCI Maxi Mags TMJ's . That one shot better than the CZ Varmint rifles I had and it had a beautiful tiger striped stock also . I miss shooting my rimfires , but I don't miss the hour+ drive to the range to shoot them . kirby

[gamo2hammerli]

Can't do this event....my shooting's definitely not good enough and my airguns would need some serious tuning first.  Plus I don't have access to some long distance (If you call 30 meters far) shooting spots....at least not some that are close by.

[TCups]

I only have 3 MOA powder burners - .17 HMR, .22LR, .223 Rem.  The 22LR is a tricked out 10/22, 't'others are CZ's.

But back to the question at hand.  What do you think about air rifle MOA groups at 25 - 30 yards?  I think it a foregone conclusion 100 yd air rifle MOA is a non-starter.  And springers are probably a dubious proposition for most of us.  But I think I could get MOA with the AA-S410, maybe even out to 50yds.

[TCups]

But that is the point, g2h -
How do you know if any of your air guns are good enough until you work diligently on MOA groups?  Not a weekly event --  but set goal that you work on and see what can be achieved.  Maybe we will surprise ourselves.

[Magnum]

Tommy, I'm going try it at 30yds (2 groups of 5 shots and 2 each single shots) and see what happens! not sure I have the right equipment but I am curious to see MOA groupings for arrifles:) Tony.

[JQR]

I'm starting this weekend if i can get the TSS up and running with the new barrel.

Question -
While I understand the need for the single shot measurement I think you'll agree that we won't be using wadcutters at 30y.  
Unless we have very good backing boards, we are not going to have clean holes. Exact measurements on the 5 shot groups will be tough without clean holes but why stress over the single shot holes - should we just use the head diameter of the pellet's?

[TCups]

No worries.  Measure as best you can.  But I wouldn't just subtract the diameter of the pellet as the hole made will likely always measure smaller than the diameter of the pellet.  You'd probably be better off just directly measuring CTC distances with calipers, I suppose.  It machs nicht how you measure, as long as you are consistent and give the most accurate measurement you can.

[kirby999]

I'll try to Squeeze in a couple of 30 yard groups sometime this week if I can . I've been doing a lot of home repairs and fix-up stuff this week and haven't been able to shoot much . Maybe I can take a break tomorrow afternoon and do a little shooting . kirby

[Gene_SC]

Tommy when you are ready to start unloading dim springers, give me a call..:) I am willing and waiting. Arms Wide Open..:)

[TCups]

Hey Gene

Yep, I have a couple of project guns for you, when next we meet.  Would have brought them to you last time at Timmy's place, but here are just so many rifles I can carry with me on vacation at one time.  The Gamo Hunter Elite .177 with the Shadow Custom Camo is top of the list, and I need to have you "tweak" my AA ProSport a bit, too.  

You going to shoot and MOA groups with some of those fine rods already in your collection?  I am really interested to see which air rifles are, indeed, capable of MOA accuracy (in the right hands) at 25-30 yards.  Bet the CZ-634 may be close.  Probably the R9 20 cal.  Probably the AA ProSport.  I am pretty sure the AA - S410 ERB will shoot MOA.  i bet your FX Cyclone will, too.  I confess I am going to have to spend some quality time from the rest to see what the BSA Scorpion Carbine in .177 will actually do with the right pellet.

At 25 yards, MOA (0.25 in CTC)  would be a group no more than 0.427 in for .177 or 0.470 in for .22 cal.  Doesn't seem that intimidating, does it?

[Gene_SC]

Well Tommy I am talking about permantly letting go of some of your herd do to the new Darker Side you have been pretty serious about lately. I would of rather seen you go to some more exotic air rifles than the rim fires..:) But different strokes for different folks..:) I can only do one hobby at a time. I put all my attention and cosintration on that just to be able to come close to competing against myself..:)

As far as the MOA goes, That is like speaking Latin to me...:) Now if you tell lme to hit a 1/2" black dot at 30yards then I could give it a try..:) All that fancy talk just goes over my big head..:)

See you soon I hope buddy...:)

[TCups]

Gene:

360 degrees is a full circle.  I know you know angles. Each 1 degree of angle can be divided into 60 "minutes of angle" and each minute of angle further divided into, yes you guessed it, 60 seconds of angle.  MOA just means that each shot varies by 1/60th of 1 degree, or less.  Practically speaking, a 1-inch group at 100 yards is within 1 minute of angle, or, "MOA accuracy".

Actually, in truth, the biggest damper on my shooting of any kind has been the new puppy, Annie.  She is my constant companion when I am home, now.  And German Shepherd Dogs need lots of exercise.  So the hour or so I used to spend shooting after work every afternoon now ends up being spent throwing a ball or frisbee, or walking around the block, or whatever other attention the puppy needs.  She doesn't understand "Hey, I am going out back to shoot for a while -- stay inside, please."  But she is smart as can be and has near endless energy, is a joy to play with and never far away when I am home.  So it was sure fun to get to shoot anything I wanted to shoot at Timmys for a couple of days, uninterrupted.  Sorry about the "bangs and booms".  Timmy made me do it!

Which of my air rifles are you coveting, big guy?  Can't have my Walther LGR-U, CZ-634, R9 .20, Theoben .20, AA ProSport, or AA S410 ERB, but any others are yours for the asking, Gene. Just let me know.  I suppose if you really wanted the CZ, R9, or Theoben, I could work that out, too -- but the lefties will do you no good.

Guess it is my attention deficit thing - juggling a bunch of hobbies, but in that regard, air gunning is the new hobby and my powder burning tendencies have been around many years -- just dormant for a while.  :)  I suspect many of our air gunning family have similar latent tendencies, too.

[JQR]

The shorty Talon got the 12" .177 barrel that the TSS came with and I was left with a 12" or 24" .22 barrel or an 18" .177 barrel for the TSS.
I figured some testing was in order before settling on a barrel so I used the smallest bulls I had. I didn't measure then but they are tiny.  
Of course I had this MOA effort in mind the hole time as well as the the PCP bench- steroid match.

In the pic ALL but 2 of the groups were shot with the TSS with the 24" .22 barrel installed. CO2 was the power source. A variety of pellets were used to shoot several groups before moving on. Had some promising results considering there was no shoulder butt on the tank, also had some disappointing results. Now - the big surprise came with the last 2 groups I shot. They would be the ones on either side of the dime. These were shot with shorty (the short talon frame with a 12" .177 barrel). Also using CO2 as the power source and with a measly 3-9x40 scope. (the TSS was wearing a 6-24x50)

Now keep in mind that these were shot at 20y. Shows that I have a long way to go to acchieve a 30y MOA equivalent but I also think the last two groups and a couple others show promise in achieving the goal.

And yes - that is an 18.1g .22cal JSB buried in the dime, which has realy nice dimple protruding on the other side.