Author Topic: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350  (Read 9471 times)

Offline thebookdoc

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Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« on: November 08, 2009, 05:23:45 AM »
I'll hopefully make some useful notes as I go. I'm about 5'10", 180lbs, so notes on feel may differ from your experience if you are a different size. I find all three of these rifles fit well to my frame. Tested velocity, accuracy, trigger pull, weight, feel. Because 2 of these rifles are .177 and the other is .22, I have tried to create standard .177 and .22 measures for comparison. Equations used for determining "normal" velocity:

1/2(m*[v^2]) = e
(2*e/m1)^[1/2] = nv1
(2*e/m2)^[1/2] = nv2
(m*[v^2])/FPC = ft. lbs.

V = measured AVE velocity
M = Original pellet weight (lbs)
e = energy constant
M1 = .00113 lbs .177 standard
M2 = .00204 lbs .22 standard
nv1 = Normal velocity for .177
nv2 = Normal velocity for .22
grains per pound = 7000
foot pound constant (FPC) = 450240

7.9 gr = .00113 lbs
10.5 gr = .0015 lbs
14.3 gr = .00204 lbs
18.2 gr = .0026 lbs

All three guns have similar recoil...though the RWS350 is somewhat more notable and the TF89 .177 the lightest recoil of the three. Regretfully I did NOT weigh out the pellets used for testing, so some of the spread and deviation may be attributable to slight weight differences between pellets.

-----
TF89 .22 New (less than 100 pellets through; owned less than 1 month [10/26]; untuned)
Trigger: 3lbs
Weight: 9 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .5 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: Beeman Crow 18.2 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 709
   High FPS: 720.6
   AVE FPS: 715.3
   Spread: 11.9
   StD: 3.89
Feel: Nicely balanced. I haven't been shooting this gun long, and frankly I think it is the worst grouping I've shot, but I didn't want to taint the results. What may have tainted them slightly is that I am used to shooting my TF89 .177, which is nearly identical in design. I plan to customize this rifle with a custom stock and muzzle brake, and it will be getting a tune, which will smooth it out more and maybe even slow it down a bit. It is starting out pretty awesome.
e = 665
NV1 = 1084.9
NV2 = 807.5
Foot pounds = 20.68

---
RWS350 .177 (less than 100 pellets through; owned less than 1 month [10/26]; untuned)
Trigger: 3lbs
Weight: 10.6 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .7 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: JBS Exact Heavy 10.5 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 904
   High FPS: 915
   AVE FPS: 908.7
   Spread: 10.81
   StD: 3.31
Feel: Barrel heavy. Still smokes and diesels slightly. Neither TF89 ever did. Heaviest cocking rifle of these three. While the FPS seems high, noting the NV1 and NV2 and foot pounds, it really is no more powerful than the TF89 .22 -- slightly less perhaps due to the caliber difference. I was frankly expecting quite a bit more from this gun -- both more power, better accuracy, and a more polished feel. For 2.5 times the cost of the TF89 .22, I think I had the right to expect that... and I wonder if it was really money well spent. The TF89 .22 will blow this gun away on all fronts with a tune...and at that point the TF will still be a less expensive purchase.
e = 619.3
NV1 = 1046.95
NV2 = 779.2
Foot pounds = 19.26

-----
TF89 .177 (owned 1 year; 4000 pellets through; Gene tuned)
Trigger: 1.5 lbs
Weight: 9.2 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .25 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: JBS Exact Heavy 10.5 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 808
   High FPS: 818
   AVE FPS: 812.7
   Spread: 9.78
   StD: 2.82
Feel: Nicely balanced. Lightest & smoothest cocking of the three. Smoothest, best accuracy. Also the rifle I have shot the most by far and so I am familiar with it. The rifle was never chronied before the tune, but I do know accuracy went from .75 to .2 C-T-C. Previously chronied after the tune at 840 fps. I am surprised at the drop off in the foot pounds here, but not at all with the accuracy (which is actually not as good as I have been shooting with this rifle).
e = 495.4
NV1 = 936.4
NV2 = 696.9
Foot pounds = 15.4

-----
The one surprise I got here is that the .22 was actually pushing more foot pounds than the RWS350! It didn't feel like that was what was happening. I'm glad about my choice to customize the .22. I think it is going to be an awesome project...and I'll be tracking it in my signature...
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline KK0605

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RE: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 09:02:34 AM »
Thank you! I have been looking for a review like this on the TF89 for a long time! Very well written BTW.
A+!
Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Offline man00

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RE: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 03:09:27 AM »
Quote
thebookdoc - 11/8/2009  12:23 PM

I'll hopefully make some useful notes as I go. I'm about 5'10", 180lbs, so notes on feel may differ from your experience if you are a different size. I find all three of these rifles fit well to my frame. Tested velocity, accuracy, trigger pull, weight, feel. Because 2 of these rifles are .177 and the other is .22, I have tried to create standard .177 and .22 measures for comparison. Equations used for determining "normal" velocity:

1/2(m*[v^2]) = e
(2*e/m1)^[1/2] = nv1
(2*e/m2)^[1/2] = nv2
(m*[v^2])/FPC = ft. lbs.

V = measured AVE velocity
M = Original pellet weight (lbs)
e = energy constant
M1 = .00113 lbs .177 standard
M2 = .00204 lbs .22 standard
nv1 = Normal velocity for .177
nv2 = Normal velocity for .22
grains per pound = 7000
foot pound constant (FPC) = 450240

7.9 gr = .00113 lbs
10.5 gr = .0015 lbs
14.3 gr = .00204 lbs
18.2 gr = .0026 lbs

All three guns have similar recoil...though the RWS350 is somewhat more notable and the TF89 .177. Regretfully I did NOT weigh out the pellets used for testing, so some of the spread and deviation may be attributable to slight wight differences between pellets.

-----
TF89 .22 New (less than 100 pellets through; owned less than 1 month [10/26]; untuned)
Trigger: 3lbs
Weight: 9 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .5 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: Beeman Crow 18.2 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 709
   High FPS: 720.6
   AVE FPS: 715.3
   Spread: 11.9
   StD: 3.89
Feel: Nicely balanced. I haven't been shooting this gun long, and frankly I think it is the worst grouping I've shot, but I didn't want to taint the results. What may have tainted them slightly is that I am used to shooting my TF89 .177, which is nearly identical in design. I plan to customize this rifle with a custom stock and muzzle brake, and it will be getting a tune, which will smooth it out more and maybe even slow it down a bit. It is starting out pretty awesome.
e = 665
NV1 = 1084.9
NV2 = 807.5
Foot pounds = 20.68

---
RWS350 .177 (less than 100 pellets through; owned less than 1 month [10/26]; untuned)
Trigger: 3lbs
Weight: 10.6 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .7 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: JBS Exact Heavy 10.5 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 904
   High FPS: 915
   AVE FPS: 908.7
   Spread: 10.81
   StD: 3.31
Feel: Barrel heavy. Still smokes and diesels slightly. Neither TF89 ever did. Heaviest cocking rifle of these three. While the FPS seems high, noting the NV1 and NV2 and foot pounds, it really is no more powerful than the TF89 .22 -- slightly less perhaps due to the caliber difference. I was frankly expecting quite a bit more from this gun -- both more power, better accuracy, and a more polished feel. For 2.5 times the cost of the TF89 .22, I think I had the right to expect that... and I wonder if it was really money well spent. The TF89 .22 will blow this gun away on all fronts with a tune...and at that point the TF will still be a less expensive purchase.
e = 619.3
NV1 = 1046.95
NV2 = 779.2
Foot pounds = 19.26

-----
TF89 .177 (owned 1 year; 4000 pellets through; Gene tuned)
Trigger: 1.5 lbs
Weight: 9.2 lbs
10 Yard Grouping: .25 C-T-C 5 shot group
Pellet: JBS Exact Heavy 10.5 grain
10 Shot Chrony Testing
   Low FPS: 808
   High FPS: 818
   AVE FPS: 812.7
   Spread: 9.78
   StD: 2.82
Feel: Nicely balanced. Lightest & smoothest cocking of the three. Smoothest, best accuracy. Also the rifle I have shot the most by far and so I am familiar with it. The rifle was never chronied before the tune, but I do know accuracy went from .75 to .2 C-T-C. Previously chronied after the tune at 840 fps. I am surprised at the drop off in the foot pounds here, but not at all with the accuracy (which is actually not as good as I have been shooting with this rifle).
e = 495.4
NV1 = 936.4
NV2 = 696.9
Foot pounds = 15.4

-----
The one surprise I got here is that the .22 was actually pushing more foot pounds than the RWS350! It didn't feel like that was what was happening. I'm glad about my choice to customize the .22. I think it is going to be an awesome project...and I'll be tracking it in my signature...



Maybe I'm reading this wrong but the RWS 350 .177 clearly beats the TF89 .177
Where you say "The one surprise I got here is that the .22 was actually pushing more foot pounds than the RWS350" shouldn't that happen with a .22 against a.177 cal?
Like I said I may have read this wrong...thanks for posting

Offline pindog2000

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RE: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 03:14:43 AM »
so there is no big difference from the tech 89 and the 350 other than quality???
keep your eyes on the prize & dont let it crawl away.

Offline thebookdoc

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RE: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 03:30:33 AM »
Well, you might consider that because the velocity is higher that one gun beats another...but I was feeling the guns. The recoil of the RWS is certainly stronger than the TF89 .177, and it should be for 4 FPE difference...but the accuracy of .25 compared to .7?! I'd rather have a gun shooting accurately than merely fast. If I have to reduce the RWS FPE to make it more accurate (which is suggested by many people that own them), then really I don't see much of a difference between these two, and then there is the question of feel and accuracy. But then that raises the question of power and how accurate the ratings are.

Other reviews, and this is something I perhaps did not make clear, suggest the RWS350 will be shooting closer to 1200FPS. I don't see that at all from my testing. maybe I got a bad one. I am certainly not getting that. The .22 was supposed to be more efficient, yes, but the ratings for the guns are 1100/900 for the TF89, and 1250/1050 for the RWS magnum. I was expecting that the RWS would read more FPE because of that higher power rating. It didn't. Granted it would have been better to compare .22 to .22, but that flaw has to stand. I was expecting the rifle that cocked harder and had more kick out-of-the-box to be shooting with greater FPE. It didn't.

SO...I'm not impressed with the power, I'm not impressed with the accuracy, I'm not impressed with the feel, it is harder to cock, the trigger is no better, and it'll need a tune to behave right. I fail to see what I gain by spending about $180 more on a rifle when it doesn't even perform better out of the box!~
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 03:32:45 AM »
I don't know that I can say 'quality'. How do you measure that if not by performance? I see a difference in price. Maybe I'd feel differently after putting 10,000 pellets through each of these. Right now, the TF89 .22 wins hands down.
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline shawn67

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 04:32:50 AM »
I just got my TF89 .22 back from Gene and all I can say is WOW, it cocks smooth as butter it shoot 15.3 grain Gamo hunter pellets at 830FPS which equals out to 23.3 Ft lbs of kenetic energy, the trigger breaks at 1lb 15 ounce and just drew its first blood today, the squirell actually flew out of the tree when the pellet hit him! I'm much happier with my Gene Turbo tuned TF89- that cost me less for the gun and the tune than I would have paid for a RWS350, I'm sure that RWS makes a fine gun but why pay more for a name when you can get better performance at a cheaper price?
Mike Melick tuned Bam B26,with  Leapers 4x16x40ao scope,Gene turbo tuned TF89 with Barska 3X12X40A0 scope and More powder burners than you can shake a stick at.                  Gun control is hitting what your aiming at

Offline man00

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 04:35:44 AM »
Quote
shawn67 - 11/9/2009  11:32 AM

I just got my TF89 .22 back from Gene and all I can say is WOW, it cocks smooth as butter it shoot 15.3 grain Gamo hunter pellets at 830FPS which equals out to 23.3 Ft lbs of kenetic energy, the trigger breaks at 1lb 15 ounce and just drew its first blood today, the squirell actually flew out of the tree when the pellet hit him! I'm much happier with my Gene Turbo tuned TF89- that cost me less for the gun and the tune than I would have paid for a RWS350, I'm sure that RWS makes a fine gun but why pay more for a name when you can get better performance at a cheaper price?

sounds like you got a keeper

Offline KK0605

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 04:38:28 AM »
Richard, did you have scopes on any of the tested guns? Or open sights?
Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 04:44:57 AM »
Quote
why pay more for a name when you can get better performance at a cheaper price?

That was generally what i was setting out to prove to myselfGlad you followed through with a Gene tune. I have several rifles now that I need to send to him!
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline shawn67

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2009, 04:51:28 AM »
Well I owe a lot of it to you Doc, I was on the fence between the TF89 and the B28, I followed your reccomendation and boy am I glad I did, thanks for all you info that pushed me the right way
Mike Melick tuned Bam B26,with  Leapers 4x16x40ao scope,Gene turbo tuned TF89 with Barska 3X12X40A0 scope and More powder burners than you can shake a stick at.                  Gun control is hitting what your aiming at

Offline pindog2000

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2009, 04:52:30 AM »
im in the same boat the only gun i wont tune will be the newly bought gamo whisperer .22 il get that gas rammed but my tech 89,ruger black hawkand 350p.22 cal will be sent to gene once i get my  goodies for the year i just shot my 89 today with crosman point pellets(premier)and the power was outstanding next will be the hollowpoints
keep your eyes on the prize & dont let it crawl away.

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2009, 04:52:53 AM »
I have scopes on all of them. Open sights are removed on all. They are all quality, springer-rated scopes. Cheapest scope was on the one that did the best in accuracy. Most expensive on the one with the least accuracy.

TF89 .177: Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 ($89)
TF89 .22: Swift 6-18x42 High Recoil ($190)
RWS350 .177: Leupold 3-9x33 EFR Ultralight ($320)

All used on their lowest multiplier because of the short distance. I meant to add those in and just forgot. All were sighted in in earlier sessions and checked before chronying.
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Testing TF89 .177, TF89 .22, and RWS350
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2009, 04:57:36 AM »
Glad it helped. No need for everyone to go through the expense of comparison. But frankly I think it was worth it -- especially since I'll be spending a bunch more on customizing. I have not thrown in the towel on more expensive guns completely, but my need to have one isn't nearly as strong, and my curiosity has been satiated.
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline patton123

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Re: No, Pindog you bought the right gun....350
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2009, 05:01:14 AM »
RWS 350 is a legend, yes "Legend." Ask anybody who's been in airgunning for quite some time about magnum springers. The 3 responses you'll get...RWS350, Patriot, 1250.
Go look on the straight shooters forum under RWS 350 "Our Take"  to see how it performs in a .22 cal. (21 fpe to 24 fpe) Also do a search on Pyramid Air blog and search RWS 350 to see the reviews.

Don't worry, you bought an awesome gun. Germans are known for their guns ...fit, finish and performance.

Enjoy your new gun, Eric