Author Topic: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P  (Read 9065 times)

Offline normal

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B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« on: February 09, 2010, 06:38:08 AM »
B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P

I have 34P’s in both .177 and .22.  Been looking for cheaper springers as a matter of interest in what’s possible.  First success in that department was the Air Hawk.  It’s outwardly almost as nice as the RWSs though as delivered the trigger was a poor approximation of the RWS with poorly made parts.  My sample dieselled for only a few shots and with some trigger touch up settled right in to be a nice shooter.

I decided to give the Xisico B25S a try since it, too, is a close copy of the 34 and for my purposes ordered a case of three from Mike Melick/Best Airguns/Flying Dragon.  Any of you who think Mike is the finest of birds are….RIGHT!!!

The plastic stocks suit me and my inclination to use open sights, fuzzy eyes and all.

The B25Ss I got are not as nicely finished as the Ruger which is not quite as nice as the RWSs.  I’ve been through one of the three Bs.  First I did my basic trigger tune.  Initial dieseling was frightening:  first shot produced a big orange spark flying across the garage and a huge “BANG.”  Maybe that put the slight “whoopee” in the spring, dunno, doesn’t matter.  It was still making quite a bit of smoke after fifty shots.  Nuff o dat mess!

I haven’t touched the RWSs, have now been through the Ruger and one B25.  Internally, the Ruger is rather nicer with noticeable attention to detail and sharp edges compared to the B25

Ruger has a washer inside the piston that takes the end of the spring, B25 does not.  The metal sleeve that fits inside the piston is very flimsy in the B25, sturdy in the Ruger.

Both Ruger and B25 had a flimsy base washer between spring, guide, and trigger mechanism that was allowing the base of the guide to collapse into the end of the trigger housing.  I made sturdy replacements that shift the spring load to the outside and on to the large part of the housing.  I polished spring ends (a hard Scotch Brite wheel in a bench grinder makes good, fast work of this) taking care to eliminate the sharp corners that can dig in to end washers, etc.

I wiped up most of the greasy mess inside both with paper towel on a stick.  Inside of the B25 tube was/is rough, Ruger is just right, no cross hatching needed.  I used a brake hone lubed with carburetor cleaner to improve the B25 tube though a nice cross hatched finish was not going to happen.   Cleaned up all parts first with carburetor cleaner then brake parts cleaner blowing all dry with compressed air.  No way would I put water in there!!!  There are places for water to get that it would never get out.  I did a LOT of filing of nasty stuff on the B25.  Much less was needed in the Ruger.  I used a file to round a lot of nasty edges on the cocking lug of the B25.

The ONLY lube I used for reassembly is my old buddy CRC Synthetic Brake & Caliper Grease.  It is fairly stiff;  doesn’t separate;  has moly, graphite, and PTFE;  and has worked wonders for me on everything from brakes to triggers for many years.  I used a small piece of poly foam and a stick to apply very thin layers of CRC to the insides of the main tubes, the pistons, and the inner piston tubes.  Used the greasy foam to thinly coat the springs.  Used my fingers to apply a light coating to the outside of the pistons and the inner piston tubes.  Put a fairly gloppy layer of the stuff inside the inner piston tubes, applied it like “tar” to the springs, put a good sized blob on the piston ends of the springs and a big fillet of the stuff  around the base of the spring guides on top of the new washers.  Used the CRC to assemble all other parts with a thick smear of the stuff down the channel of the piston where the cocking lug slides..

I put a new standard seal in the B25 to replace the one the factory chewed up during original assembly.  The Ruger’s seal was fine and quite a different thing from the B’s.

Results?  Gratifying.  B25 and Ruger are both buttery smooth, nicer than the RWS 34s nice as those are from the factory.  The B .22 is chronying about 730 plus or minus about 8 with RWS Hobby and 710 with Meisterkugeln.  Ruger .177 is running just under 1000 with RWS Hobby and 930 with Meisterkugeln also plus minus 8 ish.  B is a one ragged hole proposition, for me the Ruger is hold sensitive, but I’m getting there ( I suspect the high cheek piece that forces my face hard against it to use the open sights).

I am pleased.  No fancy springs or seals (cheap was important) were used.  The CRC super grease worked just like it has on everything else over the years:  amazing.  Cost warning:  a 12 oz lifetime supply tub of CRC runs over $15 at the auto parts store and it’s worth it.  I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction that the inexpensive B25 can readily and cheaply be made into a super slick shooter if one has sufficient skill and confidence.  
Norm  
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BSA SuperTEN,Lightning XL,Ultra Multi all 177;
Logun S-16Xs/22;
Benjamin 392, 397, my old 312 from kidhood, Super Streak/177, Discovery/177;
RWS 54/177, 460/22, 5G, 34 Panther/22&177;
IZH-46M;
Crosman 1377 (five, three with 24\" barrels and skeleton stock 177&22), 2240s (three,two w/ 24\" barrel and skeleton stock 177&22); 2260;(I made special bolts and did basic accuracy work on all preceding Crosman)  (Nitro/177 returned)
Beeman P17;  Daisy 953, 25, Red Ryder; Ruger Air Hawk, Xisico B25S
Weirauch HW70/177,HW50S/22,HW30/177
Life Member NRA

Offline mjb108

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RE: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 01:28:48 PM »
Hey Norm, nice write-up and great comparison of the three guns.  I would have guessed the B25 and Ruger would have looked the same inside!  Keep up the good work and by all means please keep telling us about it!

Mike

Offline Bogey

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RE: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 01:47:19 PM »
This is a good report .  A lot of good information.  I  have been wondering about the differences for awhile.  Especially on the insides.
Gentleman of Fortune.

Hum-bug!

Offline normal

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Re: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 02:30:14 PM »
Thanks for the kind words!  I'll add bits as I go through the other two  B25s.  For now, I note that the piston of the Ruger is a nicer piece, too.  I'd call the trigger mechanisms identical with the Ruger a little rougher to start though they are, for me, easy to improve.  Mike Melick has a post somewhere recently about adding a second screw to further improve things.  My "basic trigger tune" is just cleaning up rough stuff, NOT removing a significant amount of metal that could be destabilizing.  I round the sharp pointed end of the trigger adjuster screw with a diamond "stone."  I square up the crude end of the "sear lever" and use a fine stone to lightly "break" the sharp edge that engages the "trigger lever."  I smooth up the part of the TL that the screw hits and lightly break the sharp edge of the "tooth" on the trigger lever that engages the SL. I reassemble with dabs of CRC at all engagement points.  Gotta keep a finger on all those springs!!  And getting the safety back in can be interesting:  reach in and pull up on the sear lever while pushing in on the safety (but not too hard).

Invention:  I made a grease smearer out of about an 18" length of 1/2" dowel with a 1" deep by 1/8" slot in one end.  I wiggled about a 3/4 x 1 x 1 piece of polyfoam into the slot, massaged a few dabs of CRC onto each side and used it to put the light coating of CRC inside the main tubes.  Worked like a charm.  I got zero dieseling even on the first shot.  I used smaller pieces of foam greased up to push around inside the piston and piston spring tube ("casing pipe").  It was easy to get nice even thin coatings.

Parts names come from the diagrams at the Xisico site.
Norm  
*******  
BSA SuperTEN,Lightning XL,Ultra Multi all 177;
Logun S-16Xs/22;
Benjamin 392, 397, my old 312 from kidhood, Super Streak/177, Discovery/177;
RWS 54/177, 460/22, 5G, 34 Panther/22&177;
IZH-46M;
Crosman 1377 (five, three with 24\" barrels and skeleton stock 177&22), 2240s (three,two w/ 24\" barrel and skeleton stock 177&22); 2260;(I made special bolts and did basic accuracy work on all preceding Crosman)  (Nitro/177 returned)
Beeman P17;  Daisy 953, 25, Red Ryder; Ruger Air Hawk, Xisico B25S
Weirauch HW70/177,HW50S/22,HW30/177
Life Member NRA

Offline Gene_SC

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Re: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 06:08:30 PM »
Great view on the three springers. I have a custom tuned Air Hawk .177, RWS 34P .177 and a standard RWS 34. You can tune the Air Hawk and trigger so it is almost as nice as a good tuned 34 but not quite..:) The big difference is the price of the guns. I love my custom 34's and really enjoy shooting the RWS the most..
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
Springer Tunin

Offline normal

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Re: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P(more)
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 01:36:15 PM »
Thanks, Gene!  I made an effort to keep my notes straightforward, just say what I saw and did.

It's always fun to see those fantastic customs!!!

And today's addition to the original post:  The plastic stocks on the B25S and the 34P look identical at a glance, but have some differences.  The B grip is a bit fatter and a slightly odd shape though I like it fine.  The B's comb, while over all about the same height as the 34P's, is angled down to the butt a fair amount more.  It happens that the B fits me like the proverbial glove and I prefer its balance to the 34P.  The differences aren't huge, but they are there.  The patterns on the checkering have small differences.

The Air Hawk's wood stock damps out noise better than the plastic so it makes that nice "thump" on firing.  The 25 and 34 make a little more of a "bang" that one hears in the butt of the stock especially.  The differences are not especially apparent to people watching.  There have been posts about filling up the butt with stuff to deaden that.  Doesn't bother me.

Looks like the plastic and wood stock versions of the B25 may be available in .22 only.  MM says seems some deal with Ruger.  Check with MM on the bamboo.  Rugers are .177 only, I'm pretty sure.
Norm  
*******  
BSA SuperTEN,Lightning XL,Ultra Multi all 177;
Logun S-16Xs/22;
Benjamin 392, 397, my old 312 from kidhood, Super Streak/177, Discovery/177;
RWS 54/177, 460/22, 5G, 34 Panther/22&177;
IZH-46M;
Crosman 1377 (five, three with 24\" barrels and skeleton stock 177&22), 2240s (three,two w/ 24\" barrel and skeleton stock 177&22); 2260;(I made special bolts and did basic accuracy work on all preceding Crosman)  (Nitro/177 returned)
Beeman P17;  Daisy 953, 25, Red Ryder; Ruger Air Hawk, Xisico B25S
Weirauch HW70/177,HW50S/22,HW30/177
Life Member NRA

Offline normal

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Re: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P. Trigger note.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 07:10:12 AM »
The trigger blades in all three flopped around so grotesquely that I drilled out the pivots and the housings to 1/8" and made new tool steel pins.  Ahhhhh, much better.
Norm  
*******  
BSA SuperTEN,Lightning XL,Ultra Multi all 177;
Logun S-16Xs/22;
Benjamin 392, 397, my old 312 from kidhood, Super Streak/177, Discovery/177;
RWS 54/177, 460/22, 5G, 34 Panther/22&177;
IZH-46M;
Crosman 1377 (five, three with 24\" barrels and skeleton stock 177&22), 2240s (three,two w/ 24\" barrel and skeleton stock 177&22); 2260;(I made special bolts and did basic accuracy work on all preceding Crosman)  (Nitro/177 returned)
Beeman P17;  Daisy 953, 25, Red Ryder; Ruger Air Hawk, Xisico B25S
Weirauch HW70/177,HW50S/22,HW30/177
Life Member NRA

Offline normal

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Re: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P (cont'd)
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 03:33:26 PM »
I've now "done" all three B25s to a first level.  Triggers are much improved but still a bit creepy.  I find them easy to shoot, though.  The link is to my post about these guns in Airgun Gate with less technical stuff.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25323&posts=2#M200416

Quality control on these three B25s' innards was pretty inconsistent except for the triggers where all were rough.  Two out of three were mostly OK, one was rough though all looked great outside.

The Air Hawk's rifling, on closer look, is crazy looking, like the main grooves were cut over too deep drill gouges for a cross hatched look or some such.  Ugly like some Crosman 22xx barrels I sent back to Crosman.  That and/or a bad muzzle may have been the cause of the hold sensitivity.  I put the barrel in the lathe and gave it a precision recessed muzzle with a very small polished radius at the end of the bore.  Hold sensitivity gone.  I'm getting one ragged hole at 10 meters.  I think it was the muzzle.

Now it will be a matter of more experiments, trying things people say do this or that.  Maybe I'll open up one of my RWS 34Ps for comparison though they work nicely as is out of the boxes so don't need fixing.
Norm  
*******  
BSA SuperTEN,Lightning XL,Ultra Multi all 177;
Logun S-16Xs/22;
Benjamin 392, 397, my old 312 from kidhood, Super Streak/177, Discovery/177;
RWS 54/177, 460/22, 5G, 34 Panther/22&177;
IZH-46M;
Crosman 1377 (five, three with 24\" barrels and skeleton stock 177&22), 2240s (three,two w/ 24\" barrel and skeleton stock 177&22); 2260;(I made special bolts and did basic accuracy work on all preceding Crosman)  (Nitro/177 returned)
Beeman P17;  Daisy 953, 25, Red Ryder; Ruger Air Hawk, Xisico B25S
Weirauch HW70/177,HW50S/22,HW30/177
Life Member NRA

Offline mikeiniowa

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RE: B25S vs. Ruger Air Hawk vs. RWS 34P
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 03:59:34 PM »
The differences you have noticed in the ruger VS the B-25 are most likely due to first and second generation rifles, the B-25's are the first production run and the rugers are the second. The latest run of the 25's is better than the first run. The new Bamboo stocked rifles are running with some better internals than what I have seen form the first run 25's, tighter guides and different piston seals than the first ones.