Author Topic: Air Guns in History  (Read 4459 times)

Offline JimH

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Air Guns in History
« on: April 08, 2010, 09:49:21 AM »
I mentioned to a friend of mine (who happens to be a walking encyclopedia of trivia) that I bought another air rifle (Mrod) that was pretty powerful. He's not an airgunner per se, but he does have a springer. He mostly collects vintage high power rifles. Any way, when I described how powerful the Mrod was, he didn't flinch. He told me that the Germans used air rifles as sniper weapons in WW2. I never knew that. Any one have any info on that? What caliber? What sort of distances could they shoot?
\"You\'ll put your eye out!\"

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----Marauder .22
----Whisper VH .177
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Offline RedFeather

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 10:09:56 AM »
I think your friend is blowing smoke. If it were so, it should have surfaced long ago, especially with the interest in snipers over the past ten years. You would have to stalk extremely close and have a suppressed air gun. No advantage over a suppressed firearm.

Offline JimH

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 10:25:55 AM »


Some more info I found with a quick google: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Airguns



Reservoir guns represent the oldest pneumatic technology; they have  existed since the 15th century.  They presented some compelling advantages over the primitive firearms  of the day. These airguns could be fired in wet weather (unlike flintlocks),  and with greater rapidity than the muzzle-loading guns of the period.  Moreover, they were nearly silent, had no muzzle flash, and did not  produce telltale clouds of smoke. In this era, France, Austria  and other nations had special detachments of snipers who carried  air-rifles.



 (14th century - 15th  century - 16th century - other centuries) As a means of recording the  passage of time, the 15th century was that century which lasted from  1401 to 1500. ...     A flintlock is a firearm that  operates in the following manner:  The operator loads the gun, usually  from the barrel end, with black powder followed by shot or a bullet  wrapped in a paper patch, all rammed down with a special rod; A hammer  tightly holding a shaped bit of...     The French Republic or France  (French: République française or France) is a country whose metropolitan  territory is located in western Europe, and which is further made up of  a collection of overseas islands and territories located in other  continents. ...     The Republic of Austria (German:  Republik Österreich) is a landlocked country in Central Europe. ...




For general usage, though, airguns were no real challenge to  the dominant position of powder weapons. They were expensive, delicate  and not very powerful. The air reservoirs could burst explosively. The  valves were not very tight and slowly leaked pressure. Historical  accounts mention that the common soldiers were often unable to handle  the complex, delicate guns, which was logical in an age where the  average peasant recruit had never encountered a machine more complex  than a horse-drawn cart, and people who had any experience with  mechanical devices (millers or clockmakers) were few and far between.  The guns of the period were famously crude, and required very little  skill from the average infantryman (skilled snipers or hunters were  something else entirely, see Jäger).    Jäger (plural also Jäger, both pronounced as the surname Yeager) is a  German word for hunter. In English it is often written with the plural  Jägers, or as jaeger (pl. ...




The Austrian 1780  model was named "Windbüchse" (literally "wind rifle") in German. The  guns were developed by the gunsmith Bartholomeo Girandoni (1744-1799),  and are occasionally called "Girandoni air guns" in literature. The  Windbüchse was about 4 ft (1.2 m) long and weighed 10 pounds (4.5 kg),  which was about the same size and mass as a conventional musket of the  time. The reservoir was a removable, club-shaped butt; the gun was  recharged by replacing the exhausted reservoir with a new one. The  Windbüchse carried twenty lead balls of caliber 13 mm (.52 inch) in a  tubular magazine, and could empty one magazine in about thirty seconds.  The effect can be roughly compared to that of a modern 9 mm or .45 inch  pistol. A shot from this gun could penetrate a one-inch wooden board at a  100 paces.      Events  January 16 -  Sweden, and Russia. ...        Events  The third French and  Indian War, known as King Georges War, breaks out at Port Royal, Nova  Scotia   Ongoing events  War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748)     Births  May 19 - Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Queen-Consort of  King George III of Great Britain July 17 -Elbridge Gerry, American...      1799 was a common year starting on  Tuesday (see link for calendar). ...




The celebrated expedition headed by Lewis and  Clark reportedly carried a large-caliber reservoir gun.  The Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-1806)  was the first American overland expedition to the Pacific coast and  back. ...


Some of the largest pneumatic guns in history were mounted  on the USS Vesuvius.  This naval vessel was armed with three 15 inch (381 mm)  reservoir-powered cannons that fired highly explosive projectiles.  Unfortunately for the future of airguns, these suffered from poor range  and, unlike conventional cannon, could not rotate relative to the rest  of the ship.

\"You\'ll put your eye out!\"

----
----Marauder .22
----Whisper VH .177
----

Offline howie1a

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 10:32:06 AM »
Hi I have a book called  Stalkers and shooters by kevin dockery   I starts in the year 1066 about snipers and goes to the present time you might want to look it up .I also had a book that went into snipers useing air rifles back in the days of matchlock guns and black powder it told of if you were found using a air rifle you would be killed since it was not fair to be able to shoot someone and not leave the smoke from black powder guns. Howie
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Offline Magnum

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 10:49:48 AM »
I had  forgot about the USS Versuvius having Dynamite Airgun cannons with 7'0" exploding projectiles! I would love to see that in action:)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vesuvius_(1888)

Offline JimH

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 12:12:04 PM »


Quote
howie1a - 4/8/2010  6:32 PM ...if you were found using a air rifle you would be killed since it was not fair to be able to shoot someone and not leave the smoke from black powder guns.



Since when is war fair? I guess it's that old "honor" thing.



I'm guessing the varmint don't think it's too fair either especially when you're lucky enough to get more than one without scaring the rest away. "Oh, looks like Barny decided to take a nap... I'll just keep on eating this feller's seed" PLINK!

\"You\'ll put your eye out!\"

----
----Marauder .22
----Whisper VH .177
----

Offline RedFeather

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 12:55:00 PM »


Here is a nice write up by Doc Beeman.



http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm


Offline bil601

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 01:04:27 PM »
Kind of got into this whole thing of airguns in modern wars. One guy even said they were being used for anti sniper in Iraq. Here give me your Mauser that you kill at 500 yds+, & take this airgun. Now you have to get closer than 100yds, & you only have one or two shots. OK your all set off you go. As far as power of airguns most of the so called high power airguns put out 200-300 ft lbs. A 22 long rifle with hot ammo puts out 250 ft lbs. With a MuzzleBrake all you get is the crack of a small bullet braking the sound barrier. There would be no muzzle flash. You cant see a muzzle flash at a distance in day light anyway. There is no advantage of using an airgun in a modern war.

Offline JimH

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 01:22:54 PM »


Redfeather, thanks for the link...very interesting stuff. It's amazing that they had the tolerances to build airguns back then.



I took special note of one of the later facts: Powerful,  modern,              silenced, 9mm PCP airguns are being used by U.S. Seals in Iraq              to snipe at insurgents.



Does anyone know who makes these 9mm guns? Are they commercially available? or are there commercial equivalents?

\"You\'ll put your eye out!\"

----
----Marauder .22
----Whisper VH .177
----

Offline daveshoot

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 01:45:00 PM »


Some nits to pick, but:



The Austrian airguns weren't used as "sniper weapons" but were an organized regular infantry unit.



The guns weren't used against Napoleon's troops as far as any research shows, but they were used against the Turks.



The "hanging" threat against airgun users seems to be a sort of urban myth.



There was a regiment armed with these amazing guns and logistics to support them, apparently because the king was an enthusiast. They were not very succesful on the battlefield, mostly due to maintenance and logistics complications. They required an educated and mechanically-apt shooter, and that was not the norm for armies of the day.



I have never heard of a Wehrmacht application. Rumors about use in Iraq beg the same question that Red Feather asks: why? What on earth would be the advantage? I don't know one way or the other but is there any hard evidence to suggest they have been used on a modern battlefield?



I think the Lewis and Clark application is better-documented and there are still questions about that. No doubt it was an air gun, though!

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Offline arathol

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 01:59:51 PM »
The Girandomi rifle was used in combat by Austrian Jaeger Corp units in the late 1780s when Austria entered the war against Turkey in accordance with the 1781 Treaty of Alliance with the Russian Tsar. They were also used in the Wars of the First Coalition against Revolutionary France in the early 1790s. This is the Napolean connection. Napolean was a commander in that conflict againt Austria, not yet Emporer.
More recently, Crosman rifles were used in the South Pacific in WW2. The United States government and the OSS contracted to buy 1000 Crosman model 102 rifles specially built to use .22 round ball ammunition. they were apparently sent to India for distribution to native troops operating behind Japanese lines. Probably not for combat though, most likely for survival purposes.

Offline Magnum

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RE: Air Guns in History
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 12:52:01 AM »
AG's May have been used for training purposes? I beleive Dianawerks made a mauser look alike to train with in ealy 1940's . I had a Diana/Gecado mod 50 back in about 1976 it had a manlicher stock and I recall being told it was  similar to WW2 german training AG's?

Offline bil601

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 01:40:04 AM »
Now thats true, and there are a lot of ROTC units that still use them. They used a ton of them in WWII, and were using them to teach instinctive shooting during Vietnam era.

Offline Magnum

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Re: Air Guns in History Mod 30
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 02:52:23 AM »
look what I found  http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9638002   http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=159477545 ... not sure it means a whole lot or if were sniperAG but my curiosity of history got the best of me :) A "diana mod 30"  the loading port is almost identical to my old Mod 50.. how about that ! :p

Offline geewhiz380

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Re: Air Guns in History
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 04:42:17 AM »
Right now in russia ex milatary solders of high rank r teaching men that r more like rebels how to shoot using airguns and in ireland also i got the info from u tube around jan.09 till just recently and i was very shocked but i saw them using the ppk/s which r bb guns ,i was very amazed ,they even had women .....jorge