Author Topic: Silicone oil?  (Read 12817 times)

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Silicone oil?
« on: September 01, 2007, 08:48:19 AM »
This is for the lube experts out there. I have a couple of 16oz. nalgene-type bottles of "Ricoh Silicone Oil for FT Series Copiers". It's a clear liquid that's a bit thicker than water (maybe as thick as peanut oil, but not quite as thick as a good olive oil). On the box it came in, the only ingredient listed is "Polydimethylsiloxane", which is described by Wikipedia thusly:

"Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) is the most widely used silicon-based organic polymer, and is particularly known for its unusual rheological (or flow) properties. It is optically clear, and is generally considered to be inert, non-toxic and non-flammable."

I'm guessing that it's used to lubricate the sliding parts of copiers and printers, and I've used a small amount of it at work on the two long chromed metal guide rods for the print head on our wide-format printer; just wiped a little on with a paper towel, and wipe all the excess off that I could. It doesn't seem to collect dust and the last application was over a year ago.

My question is, does this sound like a lubricant that might be useful, due to its inert and non-flammable characteristics, in springer guns? Obviously, it wouldn't be an acceptable replacement for moly or spring tar, but in tiny quantities, would it be acceptable as a chamber lube behind the seals? The main reason I ask is that the amount I'd use at work or home in a year would probably be less than 5 cc's, so these 2 pints will likely outlast me ;~)

Thanks in advance for your input.

Bryan

Offline davee1

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RE: Silicone oil?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 03:33:55 AM »


Well...I'm not an expert, but I can tell you something about that good stuff. I used to manage a group of Printer Repair Techs, and I did a little repair myself to keep their respect. They loved to use that Silicone. I used it too. It was almost like a cure all. Like what you were describing, on the shafts where things slid back and forth...we called them print rails, but anyway it worked really well as a lube between two metal surfaces with a really close clearance, usuallyfor example, brass/bronze shaft bearings with a steel rod riding in the bearing. One tech even used it to clean his desk, a practice that was not looked on favorably by the other techs, because if you sat at that desk, it would get all over your hands and clothing. I still have some of it and use it in my airguns. It works as a great general cleaner on the blued metal, takes rust and fingerprints right off, and leaves behind a nice gloss and/or protective layer. I use it in my B3leather seal, to help it swell and it seals up really nice, keeping the walls of the compression chamber lubed at the same time. I've also used it in the front of the compression chambers as a substitute for air chamber oil. It seems to work well if you ask me, no detonations. Also I've used it as a replacement for cedar oil which is used in the high power microscope lenses. It's a whole lot easier to use than cedar oil, it's thinner, optically clear, and cleans up cedar oil too...which is really sticky/messy.



This stuff is good stuff. You can also add it to other lubes to make them a little thinner for custom applications. Like mixing it with moly lube, for example. Experiment with it. It's great stuff, and it won't corrode anything that I know of. Warning...it gets on *everything*...which could be a good thing, but also could be bad depending on the particular application.



Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22

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RE: Silicone oil?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 05:01:45 AM »
Thanks for the info, Dave. Sounds like I got a quart's worth of Dr. Ricoh's Magical Elixir of Life ;~D.

One thing I do remember reading about silicone compounds is that they don't go well with any type of fine finish that might eventually need to be oversprayed, for example, the finish on a guitar. Supposedly the residue can't be completely removed, and will cause fish-eye on the new finish. On the other hand, lots of the airgun guys who do anything to the finish of their stocks seem to prefer stripping the old finish completely and starting over on bare wood, so maybe that warning isn't as applicable to our corner of the world.

Bryan

Offline davee1

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 05:36:51 AM »
Yeah...I haven't used it on my stocks, but I'm sure it would be a very interesting sealer for bare wood, but like you say...what would you put on top of it?  Might even be good all by itself!!!  Anyway, yeah this stuff is well liked in the printer repair community, and its just all around great stuff.  We couldn't keep enough of it in stock in the warehouse, because we were using more than what was planned...I'm pretty sure one bottle went home with everyone...Including myself.
Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2007, 06:53:07 AM »
Silicone oil has high adhesion to most surfaces due to its very low surface energy. The oil is not a particularly high film strength material in that it would not be a good lube for high pressure areas like a ball bearing race. It tends to swell synthetic seals to some extent so while it is probably unlikely to diesel in a compression chamber, it might cause the piston seal to swell and soften. As you note, it is bad news around places that you want to paint. I find that the silicone oils seem to give superior weather protection to metal.

Offline davee1

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2007, 07:10:30 AM »
Although at this time I have no links or solid info to back up my story, I'm 99% sure that "air chamber lube" at least contains silicone oil. Spring Airgunners have been instructed to put a couple of drops in the compression chamber after 3000~5000 rounds depending on manufacturer. For example, RWS suggests thatyou to put air chamber oil in the compression chamber every few thousand shots. I have had no ill effects from using either air chamber oil or pure silicone oil after a few thousand rounds have gone through my guns. I guess the key thing here is, only 1 or 2drops, and only after a few thousand(say 3000) rounds have gone through the gun. It has always boosted the velocity in my guns when the time came to use it.
Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 10:23:41 AM »
When I tear appart my next comp. tube, I was going to polish in a film of silicone grease to see how it works. I have a feeling that will be helpful. Silicone oils can withstand amazing temperatures without combustion compared to dino juice. Even though tthe stuff is non-toxic, the polydimethyl siloxane oils really irritate the eyes. Given it sticks to skin real well, watch the handling. You'll be tearing for an hour if you don't!

Offline plateshooter

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 09:41:31 PM »
Hey Guys, where can one buy this stuff.  Is there a brand name that would be sold at Home Depot or maybe an auto parts store?  

Thanks
22 CFX, 22 Quest, 177 Phantom, 177 QB18, 177 Gamo 440 Hunter, 177 Gamo Delta, 177 B3, 22 TF97, 1377 Crosman, P3 Beeman pistol, 140 Crosman pumper early 60\'s, 317 Benjamin pumper from the early 60\'s

Offline davee1

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Re: Silicone oil? Where to find?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 12:54:38 AM »
I haven't been able to find it at the hardware store or home improvement stores. Reportedly, you can buy it in automotive stores and its called "shock oil" and I believe it has different viscocities. Also reported to be in hobby shops and RC car shops...I believe its called shock oil there too. I did a search on google and came up with pics and places to order but I wasn't familiar with any of the sites. It always came in small bottles of like 2~4 oz. There was one place that sold gallons and 55gal drums of it, but you had to know which viscocity you wanted, and there was a whole bunch of viscocities let me tell ya.
Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22

Offline r1derbike

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 04:36:27 PM »
I found out that Crosman Pellgun oil is nothing but 30 weight, detergent free oil.  Dino juice.  Yet, it seems to work just ducky for CO2 seals.  It apparently is not synthetic.  Comments?

Charles
Lead Launchers: 30 Year Old Daisy .177 Cal. Model 880 Pumper (BSA 3022SB Red Dot Scope), Gamo CFX .22 Cal. Springer with GRT III Trigger (BSA 4X32 Scope), Gamo CFX .177 Cal. Combo Springer (BSA 2-7X32 AO Scope), Gamo R-77 .177 Cal. CO2 Combat Pistol (Laser Sight), Umarex/Beretta .177 Cal. CX4 Storm CO2 Bullpup (Walther PS-22 Red Dot Scope & Dorcy Night Light), Chinese QB-57 .22 Cal. Takedown Springer (BSA 3022SB Red Dot Scope & Dorcy Night Light),  Chinese Tech-Force S2-1 .177 Cal. Springer Pistol (Boat Anchor...), Chinese Tech-Force Contender Model 89 .22 Cal. Springer (BSA Laser & Tactical Light, CenterPoint 4-16X40 Illum. Ret. Mil. Dot Scope), Crosman 1377 .177 Cal. Pumper Pistol (1399 stock, BSA 3022SB Red Dot Scope), Daisy Powerline 717 .177 Cal. Single-Pump Pistol (Open Sights).

Offline SDale

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Re: Silicone oil?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 04:34:27 AM »
Davee... Go to just about ANY motorcycle shop and ask for Fully Synthetic Fork Oil.  Bel Ray, Motul, Honda and a few others make it and it's 100% silicone. The additives are what change the viscosity.


Offline CharlieDaTuna

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RE: Silicone oil?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 05:12:51 AM »
I don't think you will find it in any automotive parts store or any hardware store. It is a specialized highly purified synthetic oil. I use three different weights of  Silicone Shock Oil 10, 20, and 30 weight for different applications but for Co2 guns, the 30 wt is a good all around weight to use. That being said, 100% silicone grease is what is used in most areas for lubing the Co2 guns, and not the oil.

The thirty weight is also good for most leather seals when properly mixed with Neatsfoot Oil (and powdered moly for those that can obtain it).

 The shock oil can be found in just about any Hobby Store that caters to the Remote Controlled Car enthusiasts and is called Silicone Shock oil. There are several brands of it and is a bit expensive but a little lasts for ever. It comes in wt factors from 5 to I believe 60.

The Pelgun oil is nothing more than non-detergent oil that has been colored and packaged to their specs and is of very little practical use and care should be taken in it's applications.
Bob  aka:  CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


HOME OF THE GRT-III TRIGGER
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Benji-342 .177 /Brazilian Winchester 800 .22 /Gamo Cadet .177 /Gamo Shadowmatic .177 /Gamo 440 .22 /Gamo Royal .22 /Gamo Whisper .177 /Gamo SK-1 .20 /B-20 .177 /TF-99 .177 /QB-78 .177 /QB-78t .22 /QB-78-(CD) .22 /QB-78-(CJ) .22/QB-78D .22 /Crosman 2240 .22 /Cros 150 .177 /Crosman Back Packer .22 ?Crosman AS 2250 .22 /Daisy Mod 93 .177 /Marksman 2004 .177 /GS 35 .177 /FWB-124 .177 /Custom Marauder .22 /Custom Disco .177


Offline davee1

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RE: *so Bob...r u sayin....*
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 06:44:54 AM »
That theFork Oil that can be found at the motorcycle shops is not what we are looking for? I could verify, with nothing better to do on a friday, no airguns comin, really windy outside. The Harley shop is a half hour away from me(only because of traffic/stoplights). :-)
Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22

Offline CharlieDaTuna

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RE: Silicone oil?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 07:34:34 AM »
I was just reading back through this post. In my opinion, no lube including silicone should ever be introduced into the compression chamber of a synthetic seal springer through the port regardless of what any body says and most manufactures recommend against it unless they sell it. Those that do sell it are in it for the buck. It cost them next to nothing and I mean pennies to make and sell it for a few thousand percent profit. Then you have the occasional persons that buy into it because "they" said so. In my opinion, if the gun is set up right and properly lubed, there is no reason to do it to begin with and should not require lubing for many years and many thousands of shots and be maintenance free. If a seal is running dry, there is a proper way to lube it and going through the port is certainly not it. I have guns that were tuned and lubed 8-10 years ago and more and still do not required lubing or servicing except the occasional cleaning of the shoot chute.

Also, silicone should not be used as a lubricant for leather seals in itself but an ingredient of a leather seal conditioner for springer guns utilizing a leather seal. Improperly used or made can and will ruin seals, both leather and synthetic.
Bob  aka:  CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


HOME OF THE GRT-III TRIGGER
   Website:  http://charliedatuna.com/

Home of the NPSS-NP Triggers:  
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E-Mail:  CDT22@Verizon.net

Benji-342 .177 /Brazilian Winchester 800 .22 /Gamo Cadet .177 /Gamo Shadowmatic .177 /Gamo 440 .22 /Gamo Royal .22 /Gamo Whisper .177 /Gamo SK-1 .20 /B-20 .177 /TF-99 .177 /QB-78 .177 /QB-78t .22 /QB-78-(CD) .22 /QB-78-(CJ) .22/QB-78D .22 /Crosman 2240 .22 /Cros 150 .177 /Crosman Back Packer .22 ?Crosman AS 2250 .22 /Daisy Mod 93 .177 /Marksman 2004 .177 /GS 35 .177 /FWB-124 .177 /Custom Marauder .22 /Custom Disco .177


Offline davee1

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Bob....
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 04:04:43 PM »


Let me just say first that your opinion is highly regarded and valued. Now...with that said, you'll know that when I ask a question aboutyour comment, you'll know that it's just out of curiousity's sake...eventually leading to "the right way" to do things(in my head).



So I was under the impression, from reading countless articles on the subject ofways of lubing a compression chamber...that with a magnum springer such as a Diana 350, you need *a very small amount* of silicone oil to mix with the air and create a small deiseling effect, thus increasing the power/velocity. And of course, everything I've read has led me to believe that using the transfer port as a means to get the silicone oil into the compression chamber is an acceptable practice...*but* only 1 or 2 drops, at the most, and only like every 3000 shots. And of course, 1 or 2 drops would last a long time...unless a guy was puttin a few hundred rounds through his gun everyday.



So...is there an exception for magnum springers to what you said earlier? I mean by sayin what you said, you are blowin away everything I've learned in the past few years. And once again, please....let me say that I mean no disrespect...just tryin to learn. :-)



Walther Falcon.25, Shadow.177, Shadow Express.22, Whisper.22, CFX.177/.22, B3AK.22, B3.177(x2), B4.22, B21.22, B26.22, Diana350M.177/.22, Beeman1073.177/.22, Hammerli Storm.22, Hammerli X2.177/.22, BeemanP1.177, P3.177, P17.177(x2), Diana5G(P5).177, Diana LP8, Browning800, BenjiHB22, Crosman1377, Marauder.22