are you up for a dose of reality? How accurate is your airgun in your hands in the field? try this..

get a 5 bull target,set it up at 20 yards.Take your favorite spring gun and from your best ,most accurate position,shoot one shot at the center bull,5 at the top left.Settle in to the FT sitting position,and put 1 in the center bull,5 in the top right bull.Repeat from kneeling,and standing supported(tree,or shooting sticks) Then do the whole thing again with your favorite gas ( non spring gun).Is any group bigger than the center group with the spring gun? Is the non springer center group about the same size as your worst other (non springer)r group? Are most of the groups bigger than you expected? Just a demonstration of how poorly groups shot from an ideal position translate to reality...and why I prefer gas guns to springers...

[raterminator]

You made it too complicated. I didn't see the point of your experiment, but now I know that your PCP's (gas guns) are better than your springers.

Too complicated? It only take 2 targets,2 guns,and a half hour. Try it,you'll learn a lot. Such as...your in the field accuracy is a lot less than you think,that your springer POI changes a lot from one shooting position to another,that if you compare a springer and a gas gun(co2,pumper, or pcp) of similar price and power,the gas gun will outshoot the springer in the field.
  Most of my gas guns are lots cheaper than most of my springers,BTW
  The point  of the "experiment" is to show on paper the effect of  changes in hold (that are inherent in field use) on POI and  real world accuracy.

It's an interesting test, I suppose -- to the extent that it mirrors the type of shooting one actually does.

The real point is that, for me anyway, the springer would have to be hopelessly inaccurate for me to want to use gas.

I just like being self contained, knowing that all that ever stands between me and a shot is a cock of the lever.

So far when I aim at stuff, I've hit it. If that ceases to be the case, then I'll have to look into other options.

[raterminator]

1)The real advantage of gas rifles for me is the ability of quick follow up shots. Disadvantage is carrying on lot of equipment for it. That’s a good enough reason for me to go with springer, even knowing that PCPs can be better.
2)When I say I don’t see the point, that means I’m against such a comparison. You can compare two springers, compare to gas-operated guns, or any guns in the same category, then it will be a very helpful info.

When you know all pluses and minuses of your Springer (and you better know them well), you’ll be satisfied with its performance at a reasonable distance. As to the better or worst: I got Anshunts 1700, .22 rim fire, exceptionally accurate and precise sporting rifle which can outshoot your PCP or CO2  operating rifles. Now, does that give me the right to declare how poor are the group shots from gas guns...and why I prefer rim fire guns to gas... ? You can easily discourage and give a wrong impression to someone who is new to airguns, even without intentions to do so.

I consider springer to be ideal plinkers,for when I plan on shooting hundreds of shots in a couple hours,at targets.If I plan to kill  something,I'll take a gas gun.Bulk co2 in warm weather,a pump gun if I'm going hours from the car,and pcp if the ranges are likely to go beyond 60 yards.
 The rimmie vs airgun comparison has no value,IMO,shooting cost and safety in built up areas,are two reasons.
 After 30 years of airgun shooting,and hundreds ofairguns  of all powerplant types owned,I have a problem with the common wisdom that a newbie should buy a spring gun.The disadvantages of the springer are ignored,and the new guy gets frustrated when his hot new gun wont hit in the field even after he's learned to shoot a decent group. So ,I think the comparison needs to be made.
 Gas guns get a bad rap for "all that extra equipment" How much does a few co2 cartridges,or a paintball bottle add to your cost/weight? Pumping is realy not an issue in most hunting situations.You pump ahead of time,and stalk with an open bolt.

[nmmike]

Exactly 50% of my long guns are springers. Exactly 0% of my pistols are springers. That being said, your post is mis-labeled, it should 'say' something descriptive such as 'Why I believe gas guns are the best' or something like that. That gas guns are best is obviously your belief, say so, it's your opinion and its as valid as anyones.  I might not agree with you but if we all thought the same we wouldn't need this neat forum.
With no ill will intended,
Mike

I don't believe gas guns are best for all situations,I wouldn't own 15 springers if I did.The title is what it is because ,IMO,most guys don't know how little relationship there is between the groups they shoot for practice,and how well they shoot that gun  in the field. The agregate group is the key; forgiving guns (low power springers and gas guns,generally) will shoot a smaller agregate group than less forgiving guns.That agregate(center target,one shot from each position you use) group represents  field accuracy,and is much larger than most realize until they've tried it.
 You guys should quit agueing with me about my bias,and try it....
  BTW,if someone figures out how to make a 36",6 lb,18 ft/lb,recoiless springer,I'll buy it,and sell all my gas guns.  LOL

[Gene_SC]

Just had to add my 2 cents to this post.... I am new to this air gun sport. Started out with springers and then a Co2 rifle and then a Co2 pistola, and now a PCP, which I have not shot as of yet. As of this time I love the springers for what they can do. Yes they are very versitile. Just need a handfull of pellets and some good shoes and I am off.

My Co2 Rifles are easy also. Just need a couple cartrides and off I go. My experience between the springers and Co2 is that I have not achieved the same power, punch and kill distance as my springers.. Don't get me wrong. I can shoot within a 40 yard radious with my QB and get a good clean kill. But if that squirrel or rabbit is 50 yards out I don't dare shoot with the Co2. I would have no problem with my S1K or CFX at 50 yards.

I don't think any particular air gun or brand of airgun can be called the best, because there is so many variables. Not only with a particular springer, Co2, or PCP. To each his own and when I pick up one of my air rifles it is a personal choice at that particular moment.
Comparing air guns is like comparing apples and oranges. I like the apples when I feel like chewing something crunchy.. The same with oranges. I like to eat oranges when I get the urge to taste a sweet soft and moist flavor on my palate...

One of the reasons I wanted to start this forum was so new air gunners like myself could here objective opinions within an adult atmosphere. So far this forum is the greatest in my opinon. We have allot of experience and wisdom within our membership here and it is only gonna grow more.

Thanks Guys for the fantastic Posts

Gene

"objective"? not me! LOL I think my bias is clear from my screen name. My bias is based on a lot of experience,and I figured some might want to see  for themselves one of the factors leading to my opinion.

if only it were that simple...I wish pump guns needed less work,and gas guns didn't need bottles,but at least I don't have to worry about slipping scopes,broken reticles,and POI shifts every time I change position . If there were a perfect airgun powerplant for all situations,it would have taken over the hobby.Springers have buit in shortcomings at least as troublesome as any other type,so the choice  of what to shoot needs to be made  with as much understanding as possible,and your decision to take a shot at an animal needs to be made with a real understanding of how likely you are to miss,or maim.

And have strangely enough, come up on opposite sides of the "opinion poll" - lol. I've been at this for over 30 years, and prefer my springers for both target shooting and hunting. I have not yet been lured to the "dark side" of PCP, but have had the opportunity to shoot some very sweet PCP guns belonging to a friend.

Being a relatively open minded person, I plan to try your little test to see how it will turn out under "controlled" conditions. By that, I mean that the conditions will not be the same as an actual hunting situation. When hunting, the aggregate of 5 shots from different positions means nothing, because you usually only get one shot before your quarry spooks. Another thing that I try to do when sighting in my scope, is to shoot from different positions that I may encounter in the field, and try to set the poi to a point that will "average out" to an ultimate "one shot, one kill" situation. Filled my bag limit more times than I could count over the years.  As soon as this blasted wind that we've had the past few days dies down to an acceptable level, I'll give it a try and post the results here.

Hey! us old guys are suposed to close ranks when confronting the young puppies....(LOL) I'd say your "average" scope setting is dealing with the agregate group in a pretty direct manner.You often only get one shot per critter,but the agregate group represents the size of the area where you can expect the pellet to hit.(unless you always use just one position,another solution I've never been able to make work for me,and range/wind issues) I supose to represent hunting better,you could stand up and walk around between shots,maybe shoot from  a different distance as well,but I wanted to keep it simple,and I've found many situations where you don't move between shots.(pigeons in a barn,starlings at the feed trough,groundsquirrels on open ground). I'm looking forward to your report.
 It seems to me you aren't a big fan of the magnum springer,you like the older,lower power guns? Or am I misremembering? IMO,the older guns at just under10-12 ft/lbs were well balanced between power and usability,reasonably forgiving,not absurdly big and heavy,and thus more" gas gun like" than the current crop.
 My original,central point, was that you can't use groups fired from any one position to determine field accuracy.The "springer vs gas gun" comment just muddied the water.
  I held out all of 1 year after shooting my 1st pcp in about '84, and went 20 years without buying another,so the dark side can be brought to heel....bulk co2 does a pretty good imitation for 6-8 months of the year,here,and the other months you need the exercise of pumping to keep warm.lol  I use the pcps when the targets get so far out that I need every bit of help I can get.The springers keep me from getting too sloppy in my technique.

"Your field accuracy is a lot less than you think"

Mine isn't.  My field accuracy is exactly what I think it is.  In the field, I shoot nearly perfect one-shot groups.  Almost all the time.  When I don't, it isn't because of powerplant inferiority, but usually because I haven't accurately judged wind speed and direction and/or haven't properly compensated my sight picture for it.  In other words, I'd probably miss the mark with any air rifle shooting diabolo pellets with low ballistic coeffecients below the speed of sound.

.."your springer poi changes alot from one shooting position to another."

The thing is that I only have one shooting position for the overwhelming majority of hunting that I do.  That position is standing, also known in some circles as "offhand" or "unrested."  Trees aren't terribly abundant in the High Desert of Southern California, and if you mess around looking for a rest before shooting a chukar or quail on the ground, it isn't going to stay on the ground long enough to accomidate you.  It's got wings and it knows how to use them.

You also aren't going to do too well if you sit on your butt first before pulling the trigger.  Even if a chukar or other game animal would sit still long enough for your to make all of the motions required to go from fully-erect to sitting or kneeling, you probably won't see the critter too well through all of the chaparral and cheat grass that will be blocking your vision, not to mention your pellet's flight.

..."if you compare a springer and a gas gun (CO2, pumper, or pcp)of similar price and power, the gas gun will outshoot the springer in the field"

Nope.  What do Benjamin 397's go for these days? $115.00?  I've got a 397 in bone-stock condition except for the removal of the factory back sight and installation of a Williams peep.  Compared to my wife's Shadow, there is no comparison in fifty yard accuracy from any shooting position.  The trigger of the Benji makes the standard Gamo trigger feel positively match-grade.  The light weight of the Benji makes it more difficult to shoot accurately from standing than the heavier, scoped Shadow.  I've run that test, and the Benji is sorely lacking.  Maybe if I removed the glob of paint from the end of the barrel and did something with the trigger........

Late in the upland game bird season, I'll be hunting in the gray light of the pre-dawn in temps down to 19 degrees F.  I don't think a CO2 rifle will even discharge in temps that cold, let alone group accurately.

And speaking of "real world" accuracy......

I have to confess that I am not to terribly concerned about five-shot group size as being the end-all and be-all of accuracy in the field.

Why?

Because I tend to shoot one-shot "groups" on game.  What I am concerned about is whether I can put ONE shot from a cold gun where I want it go.  I can do that with my springers.  And I'm not shooting anything terribly exotic -just a pair of R-9's, an R-1, and soon, another Gamo Shadow.  And I can do it all the way out to 50 yards, and slightly beyond.  And I can do it standing up on my two legs without the aid of a rest.

And yes, I am a very good shot.  Not because I am particularly gifted.  I wasn't blessed with superior eyesight.  I've worn corrective lenses since age two.  I wasn't blessed with above-average hand-eye coordination, either, as my high school batting average of .242 amply attests to.

But I can shoot my spring-piston air rifles as well as I do because:

1) I had the benefit of qualified, expert instruction.  In the case of the air rifle, I shot on a collegiate air rifle silhouette team back in the 80's, before the airgun universe knew what a modern pcp was.  I learned proper springer technique and had it drilled into me.

2)I have the discipline required to practice, and my practice time is sacrasanct.  I train seriously for the conditions that I face in the field, and that means that aside from sighting in, I don't do much shooting from anything other than a standing, offhand position.

3) I know how much things like temperature affect my POI and cause it to shift, and I compensate accordingly.  I know because I shoot targets in the same weather conditions and at the same altitude range that I hunt in.  I practice so much that doing all of the compensating one needs to do to hit game in the field where distance is guessed at, as is wind speed and target inclination, becomes second nature.

In 25 years of hunting with spring-piston air rifles, I haven't found any need whatsoever to go to the "dark side" of pcp.

But I can sure think of plenty of very good reasons not to.

-JP

And so does pcp....

Delicate valves......  Magazine systems that don't deal with dust well......  Reliance on external sorce of air compression......  Velocity variations over a string of shots......  Expense.......

Personally, I like the challenge that doing well in the field with a spring-piston air rifle represents.

So for me, all of the commonly-listed shortcomings are part of the attraction.

I've got a really cool "gas gun" that'll shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long, and would probably do it upside down.

It's called a CZ 452-2E....22LR bolt action.  It's a whole lot cheaper than pcp to buy.  Probably cheaper to shoot, too.  And I probably shoot it at least as well as some users shoot their pcps.

If easy accuracy where the end-all of hunting, I doubt if archery would have the following that it does, or if as many folks as still use traditional muzzleloaders would continue to do so, or if rimfire shooters would keep on plinkin' and whacking rabbits and squirrels with stuff like tube-magazine semi-autos when there are more accurate bolt actions out there.

-JP.