Author Topic: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?  (Read 14611 times)

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QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« on: October 19, 2007, 11:39:16 PM »
I bought a XS78 Deluxe some months back (looked so cool with the updated stock, brass effect trigger & Bolt handle).
The purchase was mainly to deal with "Dirty Rats" Pidgeons & Squirells that visit (not invited !!) my garden.
I wonder what the average effective range for a 78 .22 is considered to be on the varmints, my Rifle does seem pretty powerful (std trim) & ive read all the reports about "varying power out of the box" with these Rifles but as i say i'm pretty pleased with it "as is".
Yesterday i hit a Squirrel that was "thumbing his nose at me" from my shed roof about 40 feet away, whilst the blighter recoiled and fell off the roof i was shocked to see him take off up the tree !!

Like most, whilst i dislike these "visitors" i want to deal with them "effectively" and not think of them taking off injured - that don't seem fair !

Advice welcome on what range a reasonably good (it seems !) QB78 .22 should take these bugger's out at.

Still lovin this forum !! I begin to wonder if it's because (from what i have seen when visiting US) over your side there isn't so much of a "class system". We have real "Snobs" in UK and while this term is mainly used for the Rich/ Working Class/ Poor differences my experience of a UK Airgun forum seemed to find it evident in the Airgun World !!

As i said in another post - mention Chinese Rifle on the UK forum and all the Air Arms, BSA, Webley ets owners start taking the P## out of you !!.

Nice to now be part of the "Level Heads" Rifle Society - Keep on The Track Guys N Girls !!

Stu in UK

Offline tat2dman

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 11:55:25 PM »
Gotta short out their fuse box man.... 8),seriously 40 foot head shots should b no problem,maybe a 4x scope(if ya dont have 1)would help out.And theyre plenty of snobby forumns here to,this just isn`t one,it`s the best.
Barry Jackson-765-602-1351
barryjackson40@gmail.com
Sig-Sauer P229 .40-for 2 legged vermin!
BSA Super 10 .22 FAC-Bowkett Blueprinted,BSA Super 10 .177 12 FP,tuned by me with JB`s assistance and pics.A couple of smokin QB-78`s-1 hot rod co2,1 pcp conv. by yours truly!!
\"Got a gun for the ole lady\"....good trade huh?

Offline longislandhunter

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007, 12:41:44 AM »
Hey Stu,

The rifle should be more than capable of efficiently taking out a squirrel at 40 feet or 40 yards, provided of course the shot placement is where it should be, which usually means a good head shot. My .22  QB78 was tuned for a combination of power and accuracy, but an untuned QB out of the box should still be able to do the job.  

Another thing to consider is pellet choice.  You didn't mention what pellets you were using, but my main hunting pellet is the JSB Predator  pellets.  I use the predators in .177 and .22 and I have to tell you that they are simply incredible !!  Squirrels are known for tenaciously clinging on to life, even after a good hit, and their tough skin assists them in their will to live, but the predator pellets are simply awesome on squirrels, or anything else for that matter.  The predator is one of the few pellets I will use to take body shot at a squirrel, vital zone of course, because I know it will slice through the tough skin and take out bone and organs.  

Anyway, enjoyed your post.  Looking forward to the next one :)

As for the "class distinctions",,,,,, you won't find that on GTA.  The people I've met here, every single one of em, are the best folk around.  Friendly, helpful, courteous,,,,, just a bunch of people who all share the love of air gunning.  Just doesn't get any better !!!   :)

Jeff
\"If it was easy it wouldn\'t be hunting, it would be shopping.\"

Offline mikeiniowa

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 12:46:38 AM »
What you are discribing is the reason I got into working on 78's, didn't have quite the power I wanted. The biggest problem area in the rifle is the transfer port seal from the factory and the port in the barrel, opening the port to about .170 and adding a less restrictive seal will up the power enough to take squirrels with a body shot at about 20 yards in most cases. If you don't want to work on the rifle and leave it as is then go for the head when shooting.

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 01:48:37 AM »
If the QB's that are imported to the UK are anything like the ones imported into Canada it will be very underpowered just out of the box. I have three in .22 cal and they all shot under 430 fps.

As one of the other fellows mentioned changing the transfer port seal is a must.  I use the square "O" ring from a Crosman transfer port on mine. I works great even on my .30 cal. The other thing that I did to my guns was to open the ports on the bolt. You must use extreme caution when doing this modification. The bolt will break easily at the "O" ring seat.

Offline ribbonstone

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Power/Accuracy
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2007, 02:10:00 AM »
I worked backwards.

Figured I wanted about 500fps remaining at 40 yards using a pellet with a BC of about .0225.  Working the charts backwards, that works out to launching the pellet at about 625fps (and if you want 500fps left at 50yards, would lauch at about 660fps).

The mods. to get one up to 625-650 aren't hard to do at home and aren't drastic modifications...can get it done simply. Smoothing the tubes, polishing the moving parts, adjusting the springs a little bit, transfer port seal, and opening the bolt probe's intake port will get you....no valve mods. or excessive spring tinkering needed for that speed. Certainly can get them to shoot faster, but that brings up accuracy.

Want it to shoot 1" or under at max. range (and I'd be happier if they shot inside 3/4").  A +700fps arigun will have the energy to work fine out to 65-75 yards, but unless it can shoot inside that 1" limit, wouldn't be real useful.

This was shot at 50yards...running right at the accuracy limit, and just at the energy limit, so I'd call this the max. range for this rifle.


So far, the rifle that shot that above group, is the "winner"...My qb78 hasn't been able to group quite so well and I'll limit it to 40yards.


After doing the same type of tests with the QB78  mentioned above that was runing 710fps (.22), found that accuracy wasn't good enough to take advantage of the extra power, so i backed that rifle down to 630fps.  It's a 40yard gun, so i gave it 40yard power. Doesn't hurt to have more power than you need, but I like to run the QB78 on cartridges, and saving gas/extending shot count made it worth the effort to lower the vel. to it's "ballance point" (where power and accuracy run out at about the same distance).

'Ballance point"...some rifles have way more accuracy than power (traditonal spring-air match rifles fall into that catagory) and many have way more power than accuracy.  Best would be for the two factors to kind of balance out, running out of power and accuracy at about the same place...would reduce the temptation to blast away at critters out of range.

That 500fps limit is too high for small birds and little critters....can work with a lot less speed.  The SAME basic mods. used to bring the rifle up to 650fps are aslo needed to increase accuracy.  Anything you do to make the rifle run more smoothly, less friction, and a smoother flow of gas help it to shoot better..can't shoot good groups unless the rifle is consistant (and consistancy..running off that big tank...is proably why the QB79 shoots a bit better).
Robert

Offline ribbonstone

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Stushot
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2007, 12:09:25 PM »
To keep legal, will need to be below 12 fpe+, and with CO2 being temperature sensitive, you'be better be well below in case "they" test it on the hottest day of the year.

Out the box, yours could be going 530-550fps (which would be on the high end).  Changing just the transfer port seal might push you to 600fps...which is coming up very close to the 12 fpe+ rule (using 14.3gr. pellets it's near 11 1/2 fpe+).

Figure at 550fps, would be fine for squirrels out to20-25 yards (call it 70 feet).  If you did increase it's speed to 600fps, would be fine out to 30-35yards (call it 100 feet).  This assumes you are using some of the more "shapely" pellets that hold on to their starting velocity better than target WC's.

 These aren't rules-in-stone, but having a bit more than you need is a good idea.  Even here, where shooting is pretty common, having a wounded one get away only to drop dead in the middle of your neighbor's lawn party is bad form.

In short, as issued, the pests that show up in your garden should be dead pests....just practice, find the bets shooting pellet, and either take the "off like a light switch" shot or pass.
Robert

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2007, 07:51:51 PM »
Questions keep nagging at me though; if the squirrel was that close, are you sure you got him with a head shot? If you're shooting at pests on your shed (presumably it's a *potting* shed ) or anywhere else for that matter, then you first need to make certain you can hit what you aim at, it's only fair. Also, that shed roof....is there anything behind it which would stop your pellet from arriving in a neighbour's gnome domain had you missed?

Offline London177

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2007, 08:50:43 AM »
I have tried a UK imported QB78 in .22 and it was very weak. My one was OK, but I sent it to Ian Lamb for some TLC and now it's a rip-rorter :) Sub 20 yard range I think a standard out of the box rifle should do for a pigeon/squirrel/rat with just a standard plinking pellet if you hit the head. I know pigeons can have quite a tough breast - someone told me the other day he's seen pellets bounce off the breast! Those hollow nosed pellets are said to be one shot killers.
I am not sure what the law is exactly regarding shooting quarry in one's garden, I have only dispatched rats but I am pretty sure you can't shoot pigeons in your garden so be careful of the cops etc (UK law that is).
regards,
Alan
It\'s OK it\'s just a bruise!

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2007, 10:31:08 AM »
Mmmm seems i will have to get my head into this tuning guide i have for the rifle.
I will chk out the score Pidgeon - wise Ian - i thought we were Ok dispensing in the garden here in Uk !!
I know they are tough - many years ago i operated a Mobile sand Blasting business and whilst doing some roof beams in a Rail Station at night i found the blighters just would not give in and take off. That was Air from a 250 CFM compressor coming through a 1/2" nozzle (which sounded like a Jump Jet on take off and took some holding onto the hose !!) and they still stood and laughed at me !!

Would really like to get into the tuning side - with an engineering background & being a life-long "tinkerer" i am sure i could do the basics to "hone" performance - just a case of reading up and understanding the workings of Co2 rifles more than anything for me.

Cheers for all the good inputs & advice - where else would i find that BUT HERE !!

If life begins at 40 that means i'm still only 8 - MARVELLOUS !

Offline ribbonstone

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2007, 12:05:25 PM »
Think of it this way:

(1) The less force used up as friction by the hammer, the harder it strikes the valve (even if the spring is the same weight).  This would be a simple smoothing operation...smooth, but do not change dimetions and create too loose a fit.
(2) By un-restricting the transfer port, more gas gets transfered for the same valve strike. The ice-cube maker hose is about as simple as it gets, and an easy subsitute.
(3) By un-restricting the bolt probe's port, more of that transfered gas reaches the base of the pellet.  Rather than creating a new probe, I'll drill out the side port on the probe and drill out the center of the probe.

Would be best to test for the legal limt...a chronograph would be a good thing, as the above three would put you near the 12 FPE+ limit.  

May find you can slightly reduce spring tention and still shoot near 600fps/14.3gr. pellets (which is as close to the 12 FPE+ rule as I'd care to go)...which would give you a bonus of easier cocking.
------
Have noticed that the tuned guns are not only faster, they are more consistant...and consistant shooting is a big step towards accuracy.  As issued, rough and constricted, would see 15-18fps variations between shots.  Polished and open, not uncommon to shoot strings of 10 shots with less than 6fps variation (sometimes a good eal less than that...but you have to be mindful of the gun's temperature).

Even tough birds/squirrrels will drop from a brain shot (which is a lot smaller than the head...these things are not "great thinkers" and don't run on a whole lot of gray matter)...but are taking about a target about the size of a thumb nail.  
Robert

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 01:59:45 AM »
The main aspects of the UK law  - http://f4bscale.worldonline.co.uk/gunlaw.htm - are that you must be no less than 50 foot from the centre of a public path (I shoot away from the end of my garden and towards the back house wall which is *exactly* 60 foot from the pavement at the front) and you must not allow a pellet to travel beyond your garden boundary, so a good back-stop and/or trap is essential. If a neighbour complains then, provided you've covered the first two points, you should be fine. You also need to be either the owner of the property or have their permission (if it's rented accomodation you need to speak to the landlord). Best bet is fit a device which makes the gun go quiet (and which you can't mention in this forum) and TALK to the neighbours alongside your boundary and tell them what you're about, one of mine's a Police Sergeant and he's quite happy with my antics. That's why potting a bird on the shed roof isn't a Good Idea as the pellet might pass through and on into next door......You can take out anything that's on the list - http://www.ateo.org.uk/docs/PEST%20CONTROL0305.doc
Good luck with it, but get your sights sorted and do a bit of practice before you continue with your cull, most of all, ENJOY  :)

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2007, 07:01:29 AM »
Cheers that UK Doc real informative - i didnt think i had a prob with taking Pidgeons.

I am fine range-wise as i have 80 feet from patio to shed where i put backstop, & garden / house beyond another 100 ft Minimum before road.

Yeah i am going to have to look into a "quietener" - i saw some good info about "build yr own MuzzleBrake" and might give it a try to see result - doesn't look complex atall.

Cheers All for the feedback info

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RE: QB78 Effective Critter Range ?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 01:23:36 AM »
Quote
Stushot - 10/20/2007  12:39 PM

We have real "Snobs" in UK and while this term is mainly used for the Rich/ Working Class/ Poor differences my experience of a UK Airgun forum seemed to find it evident in the Airgun World !!

As i said in another post - mention Chinese Rifle on the UK forum and all the Air Arms, BSA, Webley ets owners start taking the P## out of you !!.

Stu in UK


I am pleased to say that this situation is rapidly being rectified as more and more people discover what amazing project guns these are. With a little ingenuity and TLC they can be transformed into something truly amazing. Many 'snob' rifle owners are now buying these guns in the UK after trying them at gun clubs and reading about them on the forums.  It is truly amazing to see the expression on the face of a die-hard PCP shooter when they try a tuned QB/XS.  They grudgingly admit that all they have espoused about them hasn't been from experience and within a couple of weeks turn up with one at the club. From then on most of them are hooked. I've spent over £200 (not including all my bulking setup and donor CO2 bottle) on mine since I bought it and in the meantime I also bought an Air Arms S400.  The S400 hardly gets used whilst the XS78 gets lavishly looked after and now sports the first commercial Rowan Multishot Magazine (prototype) which I consider a singular honour.  The gun and magazine will shortly be displayed on the Rowan website, when this awful UK weather shows some sign of improvement and I can take some daylight photos!