Is a PCP right for my needs?

I have been a springer guy for a long time.  But I am beginning to get fed up with how much my POI changes per how I am supporting the gun or when I change pellet brands/types.

I hunt a little and lets face it, when we hunt we can't always hold the gun the same way.  When different (unexpected) game pops up a different pellet might be desired.  Now that I have added a scope (and thereby increased my shooting distances) my springer is causing me greif:)

Seems like time for a list huh?  Okay.  I live in an urban setting, mostly target shoot in the backyard.  When I hunt it's mostly feathers (pigeons) so say I need enough power to make a clean kill on a sideways shot through the wing/shoulder at 50 yards.  Next I need it to be quiet enough to shoot in the backyard.  It needs to be as cheap as possible but I'd rather spend more up front and have something that is trouble free and doesn't need a bunch of after market attention/mods.  I can get a nitrogen or CO2 tank from work and I did scuba dive once so getting a scuba tank ain't out of the question but $$$ so I am guessing a hand pump at first due to budget?  Next I'd like as many shots as possible when target shooting in the back yard at 30 yards.  For hunting, either a gun that can give me 30-40 shots or I can carry an extra tank and swap in the field.  It still needs to be quiet while hunting BTW.  Accuracy needs to be adequate to hunt out to 50 yards and it would be nice to embrass the average 22LR at the range:)  I'd rather have .177 but .22 is okay.

The Talon SS seems to require some work to make it right and a lot of extra stuff to make it quiet with a longer barrel(but I don't know how many $$?).  The AA S410 seems to meet my needs out of the box (???) but is more than I'd like to spend.  The stuff from China scares me.  I don't want to spend a lot to get into PCP and have a gun that leaks and has a bad trgger.  I really don't know much about the BSA, Webley, etc.  Over the years I have come to consider airguns from Germany and England a cut above but maybe that isn't true anymore?

So what say you gents?  Maybe a TX200 meets my needs?  Maybe I need to go straight to the dark side:)  If so what can be had cheap ($1,000 max turnkey) that is quiet, accurate, and with moderate (or better yet, adjustable) power level?  A plus would be something that could be charged from a nitrogen tank (which IIRC is more like 2,000 PSI).



Russ

[SDale]

A PCP is right for ANYONE'S Needs hehe


Sounds like you need a Logun S16. I've shot a .22 S16 a couple times and from the list of needs you have, it's the perfect rifle.

Bolt action, 8 shot Magazine fed (double ended for 16 shots), around 900 FPS in .22, accurate out to 50+ yards, almost SILENT report from the shrouded barrel. It just doesn't have the adjustable velocity feature. BUT, it can be converted to CO2 and drop the power a bit along with ALLOT more shots per fill. I think the CO2 version is shooting at around 600-650 fps in .22.

[kirby999]

Hi Russ; So you think the dark side is calling . I'm a reformed dark sider . Some of the guns you've listed I have owned . I found the Air Arms guns to be super nice and well worth the money . The AA S400C carbine ($555 at Pyramyd ) is a 12fpe rifle and is a sweet shooter and now comes shrouded , so it would be quiet. I totally enjoyed shooting it . The Talon SS in .177 ($475) is another I enjoyed shooting . Somewhat quiet from the factory and can be made quieter with a few washers . My TalonSS with the short barrel shot plenty fast enough for me on HPA ; I never turned mine up past 900fps. I was also able to switch to CO2 with an adapter purchased from Pyramyd . Or you could buy the CO2 versions($429) and add a HPA tank at a later time. Mine would shoot 675fps on CO2 . great, quiet backyard practice and a bunch of shoots from a 9oz paintball bottle. These are both IMO good entry level guns; and don't forget, if you can round up a 10% off coupon , those prices come on down. I've sold all my PCP's, and my Bulk CO2 guns and have gone back to springers mostly . It's an easier less cluttered, lifestyle . hehe. and if you decide to sell your springers to fund a PCP , I'm sure someone here would be interested . kirbyhttp://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=181">

[daved]

Okay, if Kirby can be a reformed Dark Sider, I'm going to claim to be a reformed springer guy :-).  I worked my way up from a CFX to a Beeman HW 77 before getting my first PCP, a Talon SS.  Once I got the Talon, I went from 5 springers to one PCP in less than 2 months.  Contrary to popular opinion, the Air Force guns don't NEED a lot of work out of the box, it's just that there are so many things you CAN do to them.  With the exception of a custom valve, mine is basically stock.  I do have 3 barrels for it, 12" barrels in .177 and .22, and a 24" .22 barrel.  All of them LOVE Kodiaks, and the long one also likes the heavy Eun Jins.  

For what you want to do, a .177 SS would fit just about perfectly, IMO.  Reasonably quiet out of the box, and easy to make quieter without breaking any laws, plenty of power and accuracy for birds and other small game out to at least 50 yards, and good to outstanding shot count, depending on what you're happy with power wise.  Plus, you can always add other barrels later if you like, all AF barrels interchange, takes about 2 minutes.  With what I have, I can go from 10 yard indoor plinker under 10 fpe to a 50 yard plus hunter at over 50 fpe.  50 yards is my limit, not the gun.  I get easy sub 1/2" groups at 30 yards, and paint balls aren't much challenge until the range stretches out over 50 yards.  BTW, did I mention I really like my Talon :-)?  I can get 4500 psi, 443 cu. ft. nitrogen tanks from a local gas supplier, that's how I fill my guns.  Beats the heck out of pumping, and Talons hold a LOT of air.  A typical scuba tank MIGHT get you 6 fills, I'm still using the same N2 tank I got last August.

Downside, the ergonomics are weird, at best.  Think M-16, sort of.  Since the tank is the butt, and is in line with the barrel, scopes need to be mounted very high.  This can make short range shooting a challenge for some, but with mine zeroed at 30 yards, I almost always hit what I aim at.  Although they don't need a lot of work out of the box, they do need some fairly intensive tweaking and testing to get the absolute best out of them.  You just about have to have a chronograph to set these things up.

The only other PCP I have personal experience with is a recently acquired BAM B50.  I got it used from a fellow forum member, still trying to get it sorted out.  But you're right, the Chinese guns can be a crap shoot.  I can't say it would be a good choice for a beginner, but then, the Talon probably isn't the best choice either.

I guess the bottom line has to be what kind of rifle YOU are comfortable with.  If you prefer classic lines and wood stocks, and/or hate tinkering with it, DON'T get a Talon.  But if you want something that works well, is relatively inexpensive, and responds well to a little educated tweaking, you'd be hard pressed to beat the Talon.  Hope that helps, and good luck.  Keep us posted on your choice.  Later.

Dave

[Gene_SC]

Dang, I must be in the middle...:) I own springers and PCP's not to mention a couple Co2's.. The PCP's are so accurate not noticebly pellet sensitive that they can be very boring if they were the only air rifle you had to shoot. I love the challenge of the springers and you can master your sweet spot. Just ask the guys in the GTA Hunting Gate..:) They shoot on the go and look at all the game they catch with springers. With that said, I never completly gave up all my PCP's and never will. And I still own all my original springers except three..:).. Don't get discouraged and keep your favorite springers and buy a PCP to get it out of your system..:) I did and it worked out great for me. And if you do sell any of your springers please list them here on the GTA Classifieds first..:) Good Luck Gene

[kirby999]

Dave; I agree with everything you said . Sometimes I miss my Talon and my Air Arms guns . But with them like Gene said it got boring . It just seemed like something was missing in it for me , I think it was the challenge of shooting a springer accurately. That coupled with the additional baggage needed to feed the PCP's . IMO the Talons especially the SS are great guns to have, and worked great right out of the box. I never had any problems out of mine. The Talons are great plinkers , because of their ergonomics and non-adjustable triggers they will never be considered a target gun even though they shoot accurate with their LW barrels. If I could keep em' all I would. I'd love to have one of every thing out there. Oh , I learned a long time ago never to say never about anything. kirby

[jon]

Buy a USFT!!

The barrels can be interchanged like the talon, it gets a ton of shots at low pressure and it's dead accurate.

[shadow]

Someday I'll crossover hehe but as Gene said hang on to one of those springer's, there's a art to shootin em and once the connection between you and your sweetheart is made, it all become's one fluid motion......Airgun Zen};) Ed

Hey Kirby,


I'd like to hear more about why you went back to springers.  I too am not interested in all the extra baggage that PCP's require.  However I do like the idea of a gun that isn't hold sensitive and has much better accuracy.  Perhaps I just need to step up to better quality springers?

I see you have a RWS 34 and that is close enough to what I have to compare.  Is the TX200 that much better?  Better enough to really compete with the PCP's for ease of shooting and overall accuracy from a variety of positions?



Russ
P.S. Feel free to make suggestions on brands/models.  I just keep hearing that the TX200 is the best (out of the box) bet in a springer if you can put up with the weight/stock.  When you get the HW97 I'd like to know how it stacks up as it seems to be the next best choice.

[kirby999]

Russ; Probably the main reason I left the dark side and went back to springers is I felt I left something unfinished . I took up the challenge of trying to shoot springers accurately and got so frustrated( mainly shooting untuned Chinese springers) , I gave up and bought a TalonSS  . Right away I had accuracy . But I did have to buy a scuba tank and the gauge set in order to fill it. More money , and more stuff to carry around.  And about every 3-4 weeks I had to drag the tank to the scuba shop and get a refill . Not really that much much trouble for shooting at home . I kept my tank inside and filled the bottle there and went outside to shoot. This is about the time I started getting into field target and I got to wanting something more traditional looking that I could get a more consistent cheek weld too; and I  also got to thinking about that 2750-3000psi tank I was pressing my face to . So I got the Air Arms rifle and man did it shoot . So easy to shoot accurately right out of the box . almost no recoil at all , and it felt like a rifle. With each trip to the field target range ,  I had to drag that scuba tank with me to make sure I had plenty of air to practice and to shoot a match. It just seemed to get too complicated and bothersome to fill to a certain level then you shoot down to a certain level , then refill , and then there was that void in my mind that I had given up on something that others had accomplished . I bought an Air Arms TX200HC , the springer I had read was the top shooter in field target . First impressions were good , the gun is heavy , which I'm sure helps with the recoil. Although my TX was cursed with a twang , I shot it pretty good , and most of all I was consistent . Not as consistent as I was with a PCP , but it showed promise. I ordered some lubes and a new spring and seal from Maccari ; I had asked him for suggestions on a sub 12 fpe gun. With new items installed and getting it broken in, the rifle  has become even more tame . It's not as hold sensitive as in was new but it  would still require a learning period for someone new to shooting springers to get to where they would be, what I would call consistent.But it's consistent enough that I know when I miss , I know it was me .  So, to sum it up IMO if you can put with the extra luggage , which is really not as bad as some make it out to be, just more than I wanted to put up with . ( I like simple)   , and want instant accuracy with no recoil go for a quality PCP .But if there's a part of you that wants that extra challenge and satisfaction of conquering a springer along with the simplicity and ease of carry ; go with a  quality mid-powered springer . About the RWS34 Panther , no it is not as easy to shoot as the TX . If the RWS34 were detuned down to around 12fpe , I'm sure it would be a lot better . Most springers, even the high dollar ones are going to require a good bit of breaking in , and /or a tune to get them to where they are a sweet shooter . The only ones I've own that would come close to a out of the box shooter would be the Beeman R7 or my HW50S and even they have  benefited  from a little  work. kirby

[kirby999]

Now , I've done got to thinking about wanting one again myself . I must be crazy. I've got the HW97 on order , but there's a chance I may not be able to get it , at the price I was wanting, anyway. So, after putting so much thought into the PCP's I've let go, I've got myself thinking of canceling my HW order and getting another AA PCP. They're less than a $100 difference (more) but then I'd have to get another scuba tank . I still have a gauge and hose set-up. The 12fpe carbine actually got more than 85 shots on a fill . plenty enough for a days shooting. I got to make up my mind soon. I do miss shooting a PCP sometime. I could be like Gene and just have the one. hehe. So many choices, so little time. kirby

[jon]

Cancel it! I have a tank you can use until you get one. I would get the classic though.

[Gene_SC]

Ya David, you have to have one at least..:) Balances things out..:) Just get what you need buddy. When we are gone we won't have to worry about all the other's we dream about when we are alive..:)

Get it buddy and don't torture yourself..:)

Gene

[kirby999]

Yep, I changed my order this morning . As I see it, I'm becoming more diverse in my A/G collecting, there's no reason we can't own some of all of them .LOL. kirby

[daved]

Oh, great, AG diversity, now I guess I'll have to finally break down and buy one of those $99 440's from Natchez.  Just tell yourself it's personal growth, yeah, that's the ticket ;-).  BTW, I seem to recall a nice 400 for sale on the YF classifieds just recently.  And I believe Mac1 still has a few 44 cu. ft. CF tanks left, they're really nice for $100.  Fresh hydro, and 7 or 8 years left, if the laws don't change.  Later.

Dave