Author Topic: Technical Question  (Read 5353 times)

Offline cfxlongshot

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Technical Question
« on: August 08, 2008, 03:22:55 AM »
Why hatch a piston chamber.  Wouldn't polishing the cylinder to a mirror finish seal better?  Im tinkering with a Beeman RS1 and I was going to polish the cylinder but the chamber had hatches and I dont want to polish them off if they need to be there.
TTuned Gamo CFX.22, Gamo Shadow .177, Marksman 2004. Beeman RS-1, Crossman 1377 w/stock, RWS model 350 .22, RWS 460 Magnum .177,Crosman 357 .177, Career Fire 202s 9mm

Offline tjk

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 03:41:57 AM »
Hey Rocky, Listening to other peoples opinions from the past, I wouldn't advise ever polishing the cylinder or the piston in a springer. The results would be not haveing anything for the lubracation to adhere to. I'd just debur any rough spots, clean everything thouroughly and relube it. A bit of Moly around seals' outside edge should be sufficiant to keep the seal sealed inside the cylinder. Just my opinion though. Best of Luck, tjk
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Offline Bhawanna

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RE: Technical Question
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 03:44:02 AM »
cross-hatching is like rebuilding an engine.....you want the fine lines in the cylinder walls to retain oil or grease for lubrication. a finely polished cylinder wall will not retain lubrication for the piston.  this is my take on it.
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Offline yel01z06

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 04:01:50 AM »



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Location: Flint, MI. If it's got the leather pistion seal a smooth polished chamber is good since the leather seal will form to the chamber imperfection's. A nice crosshatch hone is good for synthetic seal's, leaves something for the lube to sink into so to speak but be carefull not to hone it out to the point were compression is lost .this was taken from another post and was written by Ed aka Shadow

Offline cfxlongshot

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 04:13:20 AM »
Thanks!  I'll be careful.  Can I use white lithium grease or some of that Teflon Superlube that stuff looks like it would work great?  I dont have any of the Moly lube yet and I want to shoot rabbits this weekend with the beeman since my cfx is in the shop.
TTuned Gamo CFX.22, Gamo Shadow .177, Marksman 2004. Beeman RS-1, Crossman 1377 w/stock, RWS model 350 .22, RWS 460 Magnum .177,Crosman 357 .177, Career Fire 202s 9mm

Offline tjk

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 05:03:07 AM »
Yo Rock, be very careful what you put on that seal!!! Any kind of petroleum based lubricant is taking a mjor risk with any springer!!!!!!!!Nor would I take that risk on your Beeman!!!!JMHO, tjk
397 Benji-98\' model    
Marksman  0035, My Fav!,CDT T\'d
Crosman Sierra-Pro,.177
Benji 392 08\'
CDT TT\'d RWS 34 .22,CP 4-16X40 AO
MM T\'d Marksman 0035
Crosman G1 Extreme
Daisy PowerLine 1000
TF-97 .22
B-28A MM T\'d
B-28 OEM Tuned by me
Beeman .22 RX-2 w/Theoben GR
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Offline Machinist

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 05:03:55 AM »
At the left end of the black horizontal band near the top of the page is the Library link. One of the most respected names in airgun tuning and co-founder of this forum has placed in this Library all the answers to your questions.
If it were my Beeman I would not do anything to it until I had studied all the applicable information so generously supplied by Mr. Werner (CDT).
Mike
Life Member - NRA & NMLRA

Offline cfxlongshot

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 06:31:38 AM »
I never noticed that icon before, just to excited I guess with all the info in this site.  I read more here than I ever did in high school.  I'm going to try the super lube he says its ok in moderation.  Now all I have to do is find some unlucky rabbits or grackels to try it on.
TTuned Gamo CFX.22, Gamo Shadow .177, Marksman 2004. Beeman RS-1, Crossman 1377 w/stock, RWS model 350 .22, RWS 460 Magnum .177,Crosman 357 .177, Career Fire 202s 9mm

Offline vinceb

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FWIW -
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 01:58:01 PM »
Macarri doesn't recommend crosshatching. He suggests a final finish with 600 grit, and according to him cross-hatching is of no real value.

Offline Big_Bill

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RE: FWIW -
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 06:05:25 PM »


Hey Vince,



Have you ever tried that method, and if so, how did it work out for you ???



I'd realy like to know ??? It's sure different.



Bill

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Offline vinceb

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So far, it seems to work fine...
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 02:38:36 AM »
...but I don't have the quantity or mileage necessary to make summary judgments.

By and large I'm inclined to follow manufacturer's or supplier's recommendations with regards to using their parts. It is not unusual to find machinists who deviate from those recommendations - sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

Specifically, Jim Macarri told me that he's seen accelerated synthetic seal wear even from a 320 grit finish, which is why he recommends 600. As for the cross-hatching he didn't elaborate - he merely informed me that there wasn't any real benefit to it.

Offline CharlieDaTuna

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Regarding crosshatching.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 04:44:07 AM »
The B-19 tuning guide that is in the library was an earlier published version and I didn’t realize that it was the one that Gene installed. I don’t know how to manipulate the info there. The later version that is on my website states using 400 grit instead of 220 grit. Early on, I used 220 grit and did not see any problem other than it did cause a little excessive drag and did cause the seal to squeak sometimes initially as well as smoke a bit until it was broken in. I never saw “excessive” wear.

I don’t argue JM’s point, especially if done incorrectly, however, if you read and believe in the guru “Cardew”, and I do, cross hatching is essential in promoting the development of the power potential in the springer. To deliver the full potential, you need a small amount of combustion (not detonation) in the compression chamber. This is provided by introducing a very minute amount of lube into the compression chamber. This is enabled by the passage of that lube past the seal. The crosshatching provides this avenue as well as keeps the seal itself lubricated. If done correctly, it provides both increased power and consistency.

If the correct lubes are used, then any wear is practically negated as the lube fills the very fine lines/marks caused by crosshatching allowing the seal to pass over them and at the same time provides access to the needed fuel for combustion.

It’s for this reason; most Pro Tuners do use the cross hatch method of compression chamber preparation.


In addition, this is just one of the reasons that I suggest using the proper lubes in the right locations and that it’s not always a very good idea to stray from using the recommended lubes.  But to each his own.

Hope this makes sense.
Bob  aka:  CharlieDaTuna
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Offline mikeiniowa

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RE: Technical Question
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 03:14:01 AM »
If you do cross hatch it use a very fine stone or grit, 600 as previously reccomended is fine, I had one rifle in the shop that had been "tuned" with what looked like a 100 grit stone and it had lost compression, replaced the seal without doing anything and it wore the new seal out in about 20 shots, went back in and smoothed the hatching out with 400 and then it held.....so a too rough cylinder will eat a seal......

Offline shootist

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Re: Technical Question
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 10:54:11 AM »
So is the NAPA #2544 brake cylinder honing tool still the tool to get for the job? I just bought it last week. Wish  I had the change of information before I bought it. Lee