Author Topic: US better off if religion kept out of Government  (Read 12297 times)

Offline TCups

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 12:22:53 PM »
Does the belief that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator of inalienable rights mean that I am a hyper religious fanatic?

Wasn't it Joe Stalin that said "religion is the opium of the masses", or was that Karl Marx?  I forget.

Offline Big_Bill

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 01:50:00 PM »


Hey ALL,



It is my belief, that Mahonri is only batting us ! He just makes unintelligent statements, then repeats them without any attempt to prove his pitiful assertions.



I refuse to argue with a him, any longer, lest I become one too.



Bill

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Offline daveshoot

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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 02:11:50 PM »
With all due respect, the words "separation of church and state" were not put in place, anywhere in the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They first occur in a letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. Jefferson, btw, had little or nothing to do with the wording of the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

The only use of the word "religion" in the actual Constitution is in Article 6, "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Then there is the more famous reference in the 1st Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." which goes on to protect the rights of communists, etc.

So that is just the truth of the matter.

I wouldn't want to live in a religious state. But when I look around at the world I actually live in, my rights and lifestyle are more threatened by those who hate religion, than by the religionists. I know it's been different in the past but that is how it stands today. So I am all for keeping the state out of religion, but have no objection to free religionists participating in the state... which is half of what the 1st Amendment was trying to say.

I had 12 years of Catholic school. There were only 2 Catholics involved in framing the Constitution, for the record. It is the product of an 18th century protestant and pan-theist/Deist outlook. It has been a very successful document, despite being written by heretics. :)
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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2008, 02:17:08 PM »
"In God we trust".

And when was this added to the US Currency and government documents?

Indentured servitude and slavery are two different things entirely. One works for a set time and gets the debt paid. The other has no end and is never voluntary.

Interesting that European Protestants settled the US while some of my relatives lived here while coming in the late 1500's and early 1600's, took land from the native populations and had already built good sized towns some time before the English interlopers set foot on the East coast of this continent.

Once again: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"... This, by some of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. It is the only statement of religion you will find approved by Congress, George Washington, John Adams and is/was the official US Government view from these early patriots.


Offline Jaymo

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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2008, 03:20:35 PM »
Separation of church and state are not in the constitution. That is a supreme court decision.
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Offline Jaymo

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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 03:33:14 PM »
Seriously disinterested now.
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Offline daveshoot

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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2008, 03:52:42 PM »
Well I fired the first shot.
But as we all know, Catholic girls are the envy of the whole world, and for every cleric that turned a little boy, that was two less competitors.

I think Scalia's originalism is interesting. I am not sure if I buy into it, but it is an offshoot of the textualist interpretation of the Constitution and for some reason I am comfortable with this. I do not see the Constitution as a living document. I see it and maybe the Bill of Rights, as carved in stone. You can have lots of Federal law without going to the Constitution, which is really a contract about resolving issues at the macro level. Whenever some idiot wants to amend the Constitution, I know they are pushing for another reason for a government to stick a gun in someone's face someday, instead of winning their own battles in lower courts.
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Offline TCups

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Re: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2008, 04:06:00 PM »
Actually, the verbiage "We hold these rights to be self evident," etc. appear in the Declaration of Independence.  But "self evident" rights endowed by our Creator are, none the less at the heart of our national origins and the Constitutional rights enumerated by the founding fathers.  They were and are, I believe, the moral and ethical basis of the America's break from imperial rule by Great Britain or any totalitarian threat, foreign or domestic, and were, indeed, at the heart of what the founding fathers of this nation attempted to embody in her Constitution and Bill of Rights on behalf of "We, the People".  

The Supreme Court and the history its rulings are another story all together.  But this just shows how a bunch of lawyers with an agenda can totally pervert something as sacred as our God-given rights if we let them.  And "religion" in the sense you refer to it is not the same as the faith and acknowledgment that God, not the government of man nor any judges they may appoint, endowed us with our freedom and our rights.  

Further, I believe the affirmation and protection of these God-given rights and freedoms are at the very heart of what so many brave Americans have fought and died for since the founding of this country, and what, as embodied in the Constitution, they solemnly swear to protect and defend, "so help me God".  But maybe, as inferred, I am just full of crap and my beliefs can be dismissed because I am a religious fanatic who wants to press my religious agenda on other Americans, particularly liberal atheists who want no part of God in government because we are better off without Him or these silly notions.

Offline Big_Bill

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and Jaymo
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2008, 06:25:11 PM »


Jaymo,



Christianity IS a Religion !



And Faith is the belief of something that can't be quantified or seen.



And Christian means: follower of Christ, or Jesus Christ,

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 12:11:32 AM »
You guys are getting way off the original topic. That was a simple one:  "the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" .

Argue and discuss all you want. This is the belief of the founding fathers codified and stated plainly for the world to see. You can belong to a Church, synagogue or group but the United States Government was founded by men and not on a Religion.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, John Adams and the rest believed in basic principals that are or are not encompassed in Christian belief, Bhuddist belief, Shamanism or whatever, but the statement stands as is.

Even among "christians", (uncapitalized and in quotes) there is bickering, *_*_*_*_*_*ing and moaning as one group fights with another because they are 'better' or whatever. They even complain that other 'christian' churches are not realy "christian" because they don't believe the bible the same way as another. Bickering, murdering, thievery and the rest stem more from religion than greed of individuals. The US would be better off to keep religion far from lawmaking and tax the hell out of all church property. If they did so they could probably do away with individual income tax completely.

Offline RainDog

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Offline daveshoot

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2008, 12:52:37 AM »
The line you are quoting is from an obscure treaty of friendship with a *_*_*_*_*_*ant country that we invaded anyway (and who richly deserved it). It is not the basis of any US law.

As a little refresher for all, I have already cited the only mentions of religion in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These ARE the supreme law of the land.

The Declaration of Independence has several more or less direct references to God. These are sometimes attributed to the Constitution, but that is not correct, and it is an important distinction.
"...to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."
"...they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions..."
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."

So you see the slippery slope of dragging other documents into the discussion of the nature of American democracy. This document preceeds the Constitution and was signed by the leaders of the rebellion, including many framers of the later Constitution.
If we are going to deduce meanings from the supposed thoughts of the Founding Fathers, this would be a very significant document. However, in a legal sense, no laws can rest on the Declaration of Independence from Great Britain. They rest on our most excellent Constitution.

The Declaration was signed in 1776.
The Constitution was ratified 1787 (or as they put in writing, the "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"). I let that reference go as a common figure of speech.
The supposedly damning text you are citing is from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

Here is the whole quote, in context:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

When we see its intended purpose, it changes the meaning of the phrase, doesn't it?

But more important is that this treaty and these words are not a legal basis for anything, except friendship with the Pasha of Tripoli. We put said party out of business in 1805 anyway because he was still trying to get us to pay tribute. I guess we weren't willing to render unto so many Caesars...

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2008, 08:20:45 AM »
Finally someone got to the treaty and its language. It states specifically what I posted. It was drafted while George Washington was President, was enacted when Adams was President and is to be followed as all treaties are.

That the treaty itself is no longer in force does not change that language or meaning. It was a clear statement that the US Government is not founded on a religion even if many held religious leanings.

No one here is attacking their religion. Anyone who sees this as an attack on their religion is paranoid or deranged. I believe the US Government should take away all religious exemption and tax this property at its highest value. Too many use religious as a tax scam and hide income and assets as a result. That Congress and the courts allow this to go on is deplorable. Tax these do nothings to the hilt. Religion is the excuse for murder and wars the world over. Without religious nutcases pushing others we would have fewer wars. From the Crusaders killing Muslims to the Pope entering into treaties with Hitler to ignore the murder of millions to modern Polygamists in Texas being persecuted for what they believe God commanded in marriage religion is an excuse for anything anyone wants to do.

Have at religious freedom, it is supposedly guaranteed by the US Constitution. But *_*_*_*_*_* off the wrong people and you find your religious 'rights' trampled underfoot as in Texas and most areas where one denomination gets power.

The US Government is not founded on the Christian or any other religion and it should stay that way no matter who is in office. (even a snake handling, tongue talking, holy rolling pentecostal a heartbeat away from the Presidency.)

Offline RainDog

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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2008, 08:27:55 AM »

 The power to tax is the power to restrict or destroy. Exempting religions from taxation is a means of ensuring their independence.

 Capiche?
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RE: US better off if religion kept out of Government
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2008, 08:35:33 AM »
Sorry Chief Rain in the Face but taxing real property should be equitable. Can't pay? Sell it to someone who can. Has nothing to do with independence. It is fundamental fairness. You own real property, you pay taxes if your jurisdiction levys property taxes. Personal Property should be exempt for individuals, taxed only on purchase or sale and apply to individuals as well as corporations.

Too many religious groups are thinly veiled scams supporting societal parasites who produce nothing, do nothing and serve no useful purpose while spreading fairy tales and hate and calling it 'religion'.