Airgun Quality Control

[taxonomy]

I have been wondering about quality control (QC) in airguns for some time.  There seems to be a lot of pretty poor fit and finish in air rifles.  I have an RWS 48 with amazing barrel droop. I'd given up shooting my Gamo 220 until I sent it to Charlie. Given modern production machinery it seems making high quality airguns would be simple. There are so few moving parts and many of them are really under no stress at all.  I wonder why manufactures never really stepped up to the plate on this.

I think of bicycle parts and the aweful beating I ask them to take.  Day in and out, rain and shine, ridden hard and put away wet and still they function flawlessly. I realize that I spend more on a bike but there are hundreds more moving parts and the stresses involved are very high.  Moving me up a big hill takes a bit more than 30 foot pounds.

So, why is this.  It's a simple device, the basic layout is well worked out.  It's not like R&D is killing anyone. Why cant a $300 gun like the RWS be expected to be aligned?  Why shouln't a $180 Gamo have a smooth pressure stroke? Why would RWS use brittle springs? I realize airguns are a small market but it would surely seem that you could contract out whatever valves or tubes you need.  Most of the stuff inside a gun seems pretty normal, springs, stamped steel parts.  What gives.

Even with all this I think in terms of fun and useability they are a good value.

[TimN]

I agree, as I have been involved in the bicycle industry for years.  I worked in the industry for quite a while, have been a cyclist for over 20 years.  

The guns that I have found to be top quality out of the box are the Theoben, Webley and Beeman.  The Theoben are probably the best of these, but also the most expensive.  You get what you pay for.  It is like buying Dura Ace.

Tim

[taxonomy]

There's proably as many moving parts in a dura ace rear derailure as there are in a Thoben and it dosent cost nearly as much. I've also recently bought a Tiagra bike.  It works perfectly. The thing is, except airguns, I've come to expect vry high levels of fit and finish even in most entery level products. Guns however are wierd. People just expect to have to monkey around with them like it was normal to do that. I'd never expect to have to take apart the sealed parts of a shifter to get it to work right.

You can buy an entery level SLR film camera for a coupe hundred bucks.  You just expect the apature to open and close in 1/200 of a second, every time for years and adjust up and down flawlessly, forever. It's mechanical.  It works perfect.

A $500 push lawnmower has hundreds of stressed moving parts.  The valves will open and close more in the first hour of use than any airgun will ever cycle and the parts are much under more stress. Plus, we expect the lawnmower to work in an incredibly dirty enviroment filled with chopped dirt and grass.  Many work for years with little maintance.

I couldn't agree more!! I posted similar "comments" on gamo forum and
was verbaly "spanked" for my effort.
  whe I spend $325 for the gamo stutzen and have to "rebuild" to make
useable,,,well I just won't buy more gamo.
  thats my rant for today, thanks
        harry

[rob3dr]

On R&D... what gets me is that manufacturers dont have to have much of a R&D department to begin with. How much of the knowledge shared on these forums could be considered R&D?  ...a good bit. All a manufacturer would have to do would be to read the forums and they would see the areas that thier products are lacking in.

I know that the Crosman forum has a fellow who works for Crosman that stops in from time to time and I think thats great. How awesome would it be for a Gamo representative to stop by the forums and move complaints/concerns/kudos up the chain.

As far as the RWS droop, I have read that they are drooped that way on purpose as a sort of sighting in at approximately 40 yards...I cannot recall where I read that now though.

[taxonomy]

The RWS shoots low at any range. It's totally out of whack. Even the iron sights shoot way to the right.  It's not like this is rocket science.  The tolerances involved here are way within the range of even the most basic "precision" machining.  You'd think if they could ge the chamber right they could align the barrel. Bla bla bla made in Germany.

By R&D I mean new developments.  Airguns are pretty mature IMHO.  Right now it would seem to me that they are just adding or removing features to meet market demand.  Nobody is inventing the choke barrle or the trigger sear.  They are just deciding if a combination of features will find a market.   It's not like cars, for example, where people are making real improvements to valve trains live variable timing.

With a PCP for example, product managers just decide if they want vairiable power and if so source the appropriate valve.  That's not R&D that's market research. With a well worn path to market like that I have no idea why I should have to stone my sear, or have Charlie do it for that matter,  to get the trigger to function smoothly.

[nmmike]

Bear (sp) with me as I'm not used to this format.
I think the bicycle analogy is a really good one. I've had a couple of semi-mountain bikes since 1985. One of them is still stock & the other one was only modded because I knew a guy that owned a bike shop. They both work just fine.
Conversly, I've had a HW50s since 1982 that I've spent more than the purchase price on since buying it. Now I'm not complaining about the rifle, and I'll freely admit that some of that cost was for a tune, but the rifle wasn't working when I sent it in, & that was the second time. It was a good rifle when I bought it, & a great rifle when I had it tuned, but I'll bet if you talked to the tuner, he would tell you that there are things the factory could have done different/better.
Mike

[rob3dr]

I just commented on what I read... I have 3 RWS guns and none have demonstrated what you described. Dont get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you. I would think that if I shell out $500 for an airgun, it should just about shoot itself.  

With the airgun forums, you have both R&D AND Market Research available. There are new things cropping up all over on the forums, but sadly the manufactures dont seem to take notice. Case in point, I dont know who it was off the top of my head, but I saw where one talented machinist created a 5 shot multi-shot breech for a Crosman 22/13xx series pistol. You'd think that Crosman would eat that up because I know that we as consumers would. Lots of folks are replacing hammer springs and hammer weights in PCP's to regulate power in some form or another.

In any case, I hear ya screamin....   but at the same time, part of the joy or love/hate relationship for me is to tinker. I think thats why some of the B-3 and B-4 series Chinese guns are so popular. Folks enjoy tweaking them to the max. Thing is a B-3 or B-4 can be had for under $40...

[taxonomy]

Sure, the BAM/TF guns are fine for this. For less than $100 I can see it.  For something to fiddle with it's fine.  The QB7X guns are more or less kits from what I can understand and I do think that that's a big part of the allure.

But as far as other "adult" airguns go one of the things about being an adult is lack of time.  I barely have time to shoot let alone ship guns in and out or tinker with them.  Also bench space is precious so with the gun in peices for over a week at a time it get's kind hard when I have to repair the water heater or assemble gutters.  It gets pushed away.  Springs are lost.

Most of the market seems to be at a "good enough" level.  People don't seem to demand that much innovation aside from crazy nut that spend time on airgun forums.  I've also noticed in firearms in general a pretty high tolerance for shoddyness.  Maybe there's some huge overhead cost I am missing.

It would be fun to tinker if I had the time but for me play tinker time goes into bikes.  I also just don't have time to develop the feel for the inside of an airgun.  Learning means making mistakes. I don't have time to make them/

novitt - 2006-06-13  9:12 PM

I have been wondering about quality control (QC) in airguns for some time.  

I've been wondering about it since the early 80's when I first got into adult airguns.

It's something lacking in all of the brands, and I'm including the 3 mentioned on this thread as being top-range: Theoben, Webley, and Beeman/HW.  I've had issues with all of them.

Theoben Crusader with a leaking gas strut......

Webely Omega with premature spring failure.....

Beeman R-1 with a piston seal that was cut on assembly at the HW factory....

AA S-200 with a bolt-knob failure.......

Benjamin 397 with a defective valve from new.......

Benjamin Legacy with too many issues to list.......


This sort of stuff shouldn't "go with the territory" but, alas, it seems to.  I can only go back about 25 years in this hobby, but it seems to me as though it went with the territory back then, too.

-JP

Although I do agree that airgun tolerances and build quality are lacking in most of the guns on the market, I would be willing to bet that there are far more mountain bikes, mowers, etc.,  sold than airguns. This is a very small industry with small profit, small sales, and small R&D. If it was as lucrative and as big as say, the bike industry, I suspect you would see some pretty big names getting involved.
The fact is that this isn't the case and the only reason that this market continues to exist is because of those people who love the sport. Just look at the tuners that are out there. How many of them tune airguns as their sole income? None. How many live in big houses bought by the tuning they have done? None. Like anything or anyone else associated with this hobby, you don't do it to get rich, you do it for the love of the sport.

Anyhow, that is my take on the whole thing. Just another .02

Russ

[nmmike]

Your right, there were at least a half dozen bike shops in town in '85, there were NO airgun shops. Maybe the odd example in a gun shop, but that's all.
Of course you can't ride an airgun to the store heehee.
Mike

I would hate to be the one to try LOL!

Russ S.

nmmike - 2006-06-14  9:35 PM

Of course you can't ride an airgun to the store heehee.
Mike

Good day;
Since every experience is different, I will share mine.  Ownership and use of these overlap or are simultaneous.
1 - First - rifle Winchester 800X (Brazilian). This rifle broke spring after (no kidding) somewhere around 20,000 rounds.  Very satisfied.
2 - Second - rifle RWS 48 which broke spring within 3,000 shots and after Tuna, broke again after similar count.  I have abandoned this rifle.
3 - Third - rifle Crosman CH2000.  After (easy) 6,000 rounds, replaced valve once (D.I.Y. $8.00).  Very satisfied.
4 - Fourth and Fifth Rifles Crosman 1077 modified for bulk CO2 - still ticking after about 3,000 rounds each.  Very satisfied.
5 - Sixth - handgun Benjamin EB17 - month old - 500 rounds - powerful.
6 - Seventh - rifle - Gamo 850 carbine (for field plinking use). - Too new, only about 600 rounds so far.  Smooth action, noisy delivery.
Generally, my experience with the (more expensive) RWS soured me on moderately expensive guns.  I figure, because I shoot excessively, why spend allot on a piece that will (historically) fail in the same timeframe as a much less costly one?  
I have no faith that spending in excess of $300 (let alone $600) will yield me a more dependable piece for the use I expect.
Shucks, I can shoot lesser costly guns (with equal accuracy and fun) for equal lengths of time and throw them out when done.  
Basically, I am talking about having cost effective fun, not building a gun trophy case.
Regards;
Mike

Hmmm..to take your bike analogy,the guns you mentioned are like a huffy or other dept store bike.not usualy trouble free for thousands of miles.(in fact,I've never owned a bike that didn't need some mantainance every few hundred miles,what are you buying!!?) There's about 1000 times more bikes sold in a year than airguns, think what that does to the R&D budgets of the makers.. visble droop will occur with only a couple thousands of extra metal in the breech,and since there are at least 4 places tolerances can stack up to make that happen,(cylinder face,breech face,barrel block hole location and cylinder fork location) it's near imposible to prevent droop on production breakbarrels. Hand fitting will fix it, but you wont find tht on a $300 gun.