Author Topic: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?  (Read 5625 times)

Offline thebookdoc

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Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« on: January 15, 2010, 01:14:30 AM »
I made a trade with a party that I'll not name -- not from this forum. Seems he decided he doesn't like the trade. I am not out to screw anyone, so I want to make sure I have my head on straight. Here's how it went.

First, the guy approaches me with a RWS460 asking to trade for my RWS350. Sends pictures where the steel piece in the trap looks mottled, like someone scraped off rust. He assures me it was never rusty, I ask in the forum here about repairing and get some good advice. I decide to go with it. He changes his mind, asks me about other rifles I have. There was nothing I wanted to trade but a TF97. The only reason I mention it is he told me he had a condition that made it hard to cock the 460. I tell him I'll throw in a Leupold scope and some nice adjustable rings to make it more even. He says yes, then no, then back to the 460 for the 350...then as I am waiting for info from Umarex on a replacement part for the 460, he sells the 460 rifle and shuts down the deal. Whatever...stuff happens. Meanwhile he knows the history of my gun which is a pretty much new RWS350 from 06/08 as stamped on the receiver. He knows my chrony numbers. He's provided none of the same info.

So a month later he sends an email saying he has a RWS48 that he'd like to trade for the 350. I hesitate remembering the previous drawn out and failed negotiation, but I listen. He sends pictures and it looks pretty new, at least the stock does. As far as he knows there is a tin of pellets through it. So I assume he's telling the truth. He said he replaced the stock, and so I ask why he replaced the stock on a 'new' rifle. He tells me the previous owner painted the original stock black...and not that he did a bad job, but he doesn't like black stock. I could have both stocks in the trade. He makes me repeat all the things I gave him before...pictures, chrony, history...I make sure he's clear on the pressure ding in the stock. He asks about the open sights, and I tell him there is a muzzle break and I didn't get the open sights from the previous owner. He wants to trade. I'm good with the trade as the 48 is a side-lever and I have plenty of break-barrel magnums, so I think it is a good addition. I include a brand-new lockdown mount still in the package, assuming the 48 is newish and worth a bit more. He says yes.

Now I've got some hesitation with this fellow, so I start looking around for a way to trade through an intermediary, so that someone will be in the middle, and no one gets their rifle till the intermediary has both. I bring up the idea to a local shipper I use and ask them if they know anyone that provides that type of service for swapping. They say they can do it. I'll drop my package off, and they'd notify the other party, the other party would send so both rifles are at the shop, and then I can pick up the rifle that was sent and release mine to the other party. No one gets screwed. The guy seems hesitant, but says OK, then as the trade starts he groans about getting his rifle a few days after me. I told him I'd see about speeding up the service at my cost, but then I didn't because it was 3 times as much to gain a day. So I get his and then don't do a thing with it but look at it till he gets mine.

When I look, I'm a little disappointed. the year on the receiver is 00, meaning I just got a gun that is 8+ years older than the one I sent. I should have asked, so I swallow hard and shut up. The bluing is unnatural -- sortof a yellowish color. It doesn't match the rest of the receiver. The gun is dusty and the steel in the receiver is scratched up. The plastic on the sight looks worn. If there was only 1 tin of pellets through this, it was a tin the size of a gallon paint can. I'm thinking it is my fault for not doing better due diligence. I tell him the rifle arrived, and that mine is on the way. Nothing more.

So I wait and the evening I get an email from him, and here it is in his own words:

"well, well richard- now i know why you were so anxious to get my gun before i got yours. since you said you were the one that had the muzzle brake installed, i would like to know who put it on. whoever did it, they ruined the bluing underneath and also failed to put a crown on the barrel, where they cut the barrel off.  they also ruined any possibility of putting the gun back to stock. thanks a bunch! now i have essentially a piece of junk, or perhaps a good boat anchor. i certainly don't have a decent gun! i expect you to do something about this, richard. this was a good faith trade and i sent you top of the line goods! i will give you a full day to respond with some kind of reparations to offer before i put this on the boi. no wonder you wanted to receive my gun first. i should have known better than to trade that way. i do, however, know what to do about it."

I'm flummoxed. I don't know what rifle he thinks he sent, but whatever he's talking is bull. He's got a 'boat anchor' that is virtually brand new with 1040 fps... and he sent 'top of the line' goods where the bluing looks redone, the stock was replaced, the plastic is worn, the receiver steel scratched, the lever strut is loose, and the plastic cover between the receiver and barrel is seated incorrectly... And HE wants compensation?! I toss my hands in the air, and send him an email back an email saying if he wants to nix the trade send the rifle back and we'll reverse it. But now I'm wondering about the barrel and if he's already been trying to modify the gun and screwed it up. I mean if the barrel was cut, there wouldn't be bluing on the crown, and there was...I looked. Then I start thinking he might be trying to get more out of the trade than he knows he should by asking for compensation for issues that will never be proved...

I'm just wondering how it seems to everyone here...Is there something I should do beside offer the reversal? What if i come to find he chopped the barrel?
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline Phil_B

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 01:54:07 AM »
If you are not happy and he is not happy do a reverse  BUT If he screwed with your gun he owns it . Try to get pics before the reverse to make sure he did not mess with it. Did you let him know that your not happy either. He threatened you with bad BOI do the same to him...But to him it might not matter
850 .22 HPA
Marauder .22 w/Leapers 6-24X50
Gamo Viper .177 w/ CenterPoint 4-16x40
Diana 26 .177 w/3-9x40
Diana 36 .177 w/RWS 3-9x40
Diana 46 .177 w/ NCstar mark III 10-40x50
Diana 48 .22  w/ CenterPoint 4-16x40
Diana 350 mag .22 w/Leapers 6-24X50
Diana 350 Feuerkraft Pro Compact .177 w/Leapers6-24X50

Offline ezman604

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 02:45:52 AM »


Richard, I hate to hear of your trade gone bad. I remember the discussion of the 460 and the photos of the rusted breech cover. We discussed you getting a replacement cover from Umarexr or just doing a jewel finish on the old one. And the guy sells the gun out from under you without checking with you first? While negotiations were open? Strike 1 for seller.



Then he tells you this is practically a new gun? To HIM, it was probably new. And HE probably only put about a tin of ammo through it. All truths, as far as he is concerned. Not giving a full disclosure of the history of the gun, strike 2 for seller.



Going back through your 3rd party handler for the reverse transaction is definately the way to go. In hindsight, it would have been nice to have the 3rd party make full documentation and photos of each gun as it passed through their possession. I'm not sure if you have any economical legal options here. But I would take a slue of photos and complete description of the less than new condition of the gun and email the seller with this as comparison to the descriptions and photos he sent you prior to the trade. And also remind him you have the same resources at your desposal to post your side of the story too. If he plans on doing any more trading, and it sure looks like he does a lot, he may want to rethink just HOW he mislead you in this trade.



Again, I feel for you. Sometimes you HAVE to be willing to take a chance to get something you want. And sometimes it doesn't work out as planned or as you had hoped. Asking for referencesis not only a good practice but for me they are required before I will make a trade with someone I don't know. BTW, I am still rather new here and don't have much buying/selling/trading logged,but as eBay user "ezman", I have over 1300 transactionswith a 100% feedback rating.



Hope it all works out for you and you get your original gun back in as good of shape as it was sent. Keep us informed my friend!!!!



Dave



Crosman/Revelation 760 PumpMaster (Vintage 1967)
Powerline 1000S .177 (semi-tuned by me)
Benjamin Super Streak .177/.22 (semi-tuned by me)
Benjamin Trail NP XL1500 (bone stock)
Benjamin Trail NP XL1100 (project gun)
TF89 .22 (tuned by Gene)
Winchester 1000WS .177 (semi-tuned by muwah)
QB57 (l

Offline bodiej

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Re: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 03:28:13 AM »
Sounds like a bottom feeder to me.  I've had dealings with them before.  I'd offer to pay the shipping to reverse the deal - that way you come out the hero, no matter what he wants to post about you.  I bet he won't do it though.  I'll bet he's just trying to get you to sweeten the deal with threats.  No matter what else you send him to shut him up, it's not gonna keep him from ruining your name..  Good luck

I have alot of time and money tied up winning a lawsuit over a year ago with one of these bottom feeders.  Don't think I'll ever see the money and don't know what to do about it.

Offline Bhawanna

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not all is ruined......
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2010, 04:05:57 AM »
i can re-crown the barrel for you.....and maybe touch-up the bluing a little.  pm me.....
The hardest part of getting old is trying to look good naked!

Offline Big_Bill

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 04:28:39 AM »


Hello Richard,



I have been lucky with most of my dealings in the air gun community, and had only one loss, $180.00 down the drain ! And I knew the person fairly well ! :(



I would end all dealings unless all the photos that I ask for were given happily from the seller.



Now, I believe the suggestion to "OFFER" to pay the return postage is a good one ! And I would make my post first to the BOI otherwise it will sound like sower grapes, and you will loose the advantage as the harmed party. This person should be EXPOSED !!!!!!! Tell us who it is, if for no other reason than to protect the others here !



I wish you the best of luck in this matter. But strike fast, and strike HARD on the BOI !!!



Just what I would do !



Bill

Life Member of The United States of America
Life Member of the National Rifle Association
Member Air Guns Addicted Anonymous
SHOOT SAFE ! - SHOOT WELL ! - SHOOT OFTEN !
Always Use A Spring Compressor ! and Buy the GREAT GRT-III & CBR Triggers, cause they are GRRRREAT !

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 02:25:33 AM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm not looking to condemn the guy, but I wanted some feedback to see if I was wrong there somewhere. I sent the following response and did not hear back. I should have waited to cool down a bit more, but I think it is pretty even toned.

Virgil,

I have no desire to rip you off or get the gun first or whatever you are talking about. I was not at all anxious to get your gun first, I proposed a means of trading through a middleman. It was best for both parties. If you want to nix the trade, then I will return the rifle you sent. I haven't even shot it yet. If you feel that I intentionally tried to swindle you, you are 100% wrong. The gun you sent is 8 years older than the one I sent you, and it was my fault for not asking. I'm sure you know the date is imprinted on the receiver. The bluing is awful -- it is yellow, faded and uneven -- and the rifle is obviously well used. Perhaps you don't remember, but I can take some pictures to show you what I mean. You gave me the impression that the rifle was not used much at all. I was not going to complain to you and swallow the deal because it was my failure to not ask those questions, and a deal is a deal. So you go ahead and bark wherever you want, because it'll just bark back at you -- though I probably won't have the energy. Quite frankly, I don't even know what BOI is. I have heard people refer to it... If you complain, perhaps I'll find out.

Let me know if you want to reverse the exchange. If anyone should have known not to trade it should have been me after the first unusual proposition that you revoked.  

I was as straight-forward with you as I could be. I told you about the dents in the stock, the previous owner, and what I believe to be an accurate pellet count, as well as statistics from the shooting. You provided none of that. Return it if you are returning it. My reputation is much bigger than one silly exchange. I've learned from it. I've also made trades since and all worked out well... Two with you both went sour.

Richard


I do like the idea of paying the shipping, which I'll offer if he decides to trade back. It's just a few bucks and worth getting my gun back so long as the barrel isn't chopped.

I think it was worth chancing the trade, and I learned a lot about what to ask and how to act if I ever trade again. Well, I shouldn't say "if" as since I traded stocks with another GTA member, and it couldn't have gone smoother. I ask the questions that need to be asked, and don't trust a vague reference to quality or newness.

As someone asked, it was Virgil Clark. Like I said, he's got a lot of positive reviews on the BOI, so I might have just had bad luck with him.

Thanks for all the feedback! It really helps.

THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline RedFeather

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2010, 02:46:48 AM »


Take pictures of the 48 - good, detailed ones featuring what you consider issues. If you have pictures of the 350, good. You might then let him know that, if he doesn't want to reverse the swap (you should have been satisfied on your end, same as if you paid cash), he can feel free to post on the BOI (Yellow's, I presume). If he declines and/or gives you a bad post, stick the pictures of both guns with a brief narrative on the BOI. It should end his dealing days in a hurry.



About the "yellowing" bluing - I have never seen bluing go that color. It could be dried oil. Often, when a gun has been put away, guys will wipe them down too generously with gun oil and it will dry to a dull yellow like shellac. Pull the action out of the stock and try a bit of gun cleaner on it to see if it dissolves. (Don't do it while stocked in case some of it runs - it will stain the wood.) It the color is more orange than yellow, that would be typical of gun parts having a fair degree of iron in them. See this quite often on older rimfires, where the barrel is still a bark blue but the action has a reddish tint. Nothing you can do about that.



This bird sounds like a low life who remembered your 350 and scrounged around for something to trade off. There's nothing wrong with a 2000 48 but be aware that it may have the older internal parts (piston?) which are not compatible with the newer models. Not sure when the transition was but you can probably search on it.



If it helps, you're not alone is being disappointed. I bought an older German springer that looked pretty good only to find out the sear was shot. The seller said he didn't notice it being particularly light since he was used to target guns. Darned thing lasted about four shots before going off by itself. Yeah, target trigger my (*$.


Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2010, 03:11:00 AM »
The bluing is like nothing I'd ever seen. Looks like someone tried to re-blue not really knowing what they were doing. It is lighter than the receiver, which is why I wouldn't think it was dried oil.

I think you are right about the pictures. I think if I have to post to BOI in response, I've got a lot of good visual ammo.

I'm waiting for him to confirm that he either wants to reverse the trade or not. If so, we'll reverse. If not, I'll take it apart and see what I've really got -- after I test shoot to see if it works at all.

Somehow I feel like I really should post to the BOI so the incident isn't swept under the rug and so others at least take precaution in trades with him. If other people had posted responses I might have dug in deeper. Who knows. But it doesn't look like there are a lot of negatives on the BOI... It almost feels right now like Virgil uses intimidation to enforce his bad trades.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with the German gun red... I'll use my bad swap as an experience to learn from and maybe a rifle to learn some repairs on...
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline airiscool

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 03:56:37 AM »
Rich,

If it were me....

I'd tell him, what you told us - everything you feel is wrong about the gun and e-mail clear pictures of what your complaints are. Try to work it out between you.  

If he doesn't want to swap back and insists on trashing you in a BOI, let him know that cuts both ways.


Paul.

Benji Trail NPXL 1100, Gamo .22 Whisper, Crosman 760 Pumpmaster, Crosman 66 Powermaster, Crosman .22 revolver, Daisy model 102, Daisy early Model 25.

Offline thebookdoc

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 05:21:57 AM »
Yeah, so here is a dialog following my last message to Virgil:

---
On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:23 AM, virgil clark wrote:
richard- i just had eye surgery yesterday, or i would have gotten back sooner. i have found a source for a new barrel, so just forget the whole thing as far as i am concerned. virgil

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Richard Lynch wrote:
what are you doing with the old barrel? Richard

On Jan 16, 2010, at 12:41 PM, virgil clark wrote:
don't have any plans for it yet.virgil

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Richard Lynch wrote:
I'd be glad to buy that barrel and the muzzle brake if you have not altered the barrel.
If you are willing to sell, how much for each? Richard

On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:00 PM, virgil clark wrote:
think i will just keep them awhile.virgil

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Richard Lynch wrote:
oh, I'd have thought you'd want to sell the barrel as you suggested it made the 350 a boat anchor. I figured that would mean you wouldn't want to put it on another gun.
Let me know if you change your mind. I'd be glad to have it for a project I am working on. Richard

---
I think he won't sell because there is nothing wrong with it. He certainly would never attach it to a gun for sale to someone else! He's in the hospital an awful lot wonder if that is for real or for sympathy...




THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline airiscool

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2010, 08:19:35 AM »
Well, you tried to make his situation better by buying the "boat anchor".  If he doesn't want to turn it into money, then either he has a boat somewhere, or it's not an anchor, but obvoiusly it has value to him..

Sounds like everyday is gonna be a differant story with this guy, but for now, seems there's no harm in your waiting to see if he does anything.

I'd suggest, take a deep breath, let it out slowly, ....then go put some pellet holes in some empty cans !  :D

Paul.
Benji Trail NPXL 1100, Gamo .22 Whisper, Crosman 760 Pumpmaster, Crosman 66 Powermaster, Crosman .22 revolver, Daisy model 102, Daisy early Model 25.

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2010, 08:51:18 AM »
Yeah, I'll have to finally take the RWS 48 out and have a few shots with it...and hope to dang it doesn't fall to pieces!
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline Bogey

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 08:54:08 AM »
It seems that you have found yourself a Weasel.   Lowest sort of man or woman.


I regret to insult all real 4 legged  Weasels outthere.
Gentleman of Fortune.

Hum-bug!

Offline RedFeather

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RE: Trade Gone Sour...Opinions?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 10:17:31 AM »


Couple of points. First, you guys had a swap wherein both had to be satisfied. You, clearly, are not, so why the continued dialogue? Why not just tell him it's not a good trade and you want to re-exchange guns? Second point, there aren't too many eye surgeries where you are back on the computer the next day. Haven't had cataract surgery, myself, but I though you were bandaged up for a bit. Guys sounds full of it. Last point, how hard is it to replace a barrel on a 350? Either you buy a complete second barrel (not such a cheap option) or you have to pull/re-install. Aren't Diana's staked? No easy task, especially for a convalescent.





Don't get me wrong. I hope everything turns out OK for you. And this is a good heads up for the rest of us.